5 ms·

The Bipolar Lisp Programmer

83 points by auvi 12y ago

pdonis 12y ago
Priceless quote: "Writing in C is like building a mosaic out of lentils using a tweezer and glue." That alone makes the article worth the read in my book. :-)
- lol123456 12y ago
  Lisp is a failure. It failed to deliver a usable Operating System within a budget. It failed to deliver AI with even the intelligence of a donkey. It failed to deliver an efficient IDE. It failed to deliver a serialization format for the industry to use. It failed to deliver a fast interpreter for high performance applications like Games. It failed to deliver a usable framework for Web Applications for 20 years. It failed to deliver package management for libraries. If the History of Lisp is to teach us anything is that the unity of data and code is not a prerequisite to write useful applications.
iopq 12y ago
It's not bipolar, I understand those are the symptoms of ADD. Bored with everything, very high threshold for enjoyment or interest, but getting quickly bored with that same thing.
- Argorak 12y ago
  This is also not ADD. ADD is, among a few other things, a deficiency to guide ones concentration. Hyperfocus and repeated Hyperfocus for things you like is actually a sign of ADD. ADD people can very well do things they enjoy repeatedly and often.
  - coldtea 12y ago
    It's also not something to fret over. A lot of those monikers, like ADD are thrown around with a cavalier, throw-caution-to-the-wind attitude. And I mean by doctors. Some of so-called "diseases" are actually natural responses to messed up situations (like a boring to hell school environment for a smart kid), and mostly stick as medical fads (tons of them in previous decades that are dead and burried now) and because subscribing drugs pays well.
    - Argorak 12y ago
      You are aware that ADD is, at the current state of science, considered a difference within the brain chemistry and no "reaction" to something? You don't "develop" ADD. One requirement to diagnose ADD in high age is to prove that it was there from the beginning on, in your very first years. And that cavalier attitude that you describe is actually very harmful to people that _do_ have ADD, especially those that continue to have it after a certain age. Also note that "disease" is the wrong word for this. It is a condition: you have it, it won't go away, but you can work on it and build your life around it. It's not that you necessarily _suffer_. People speaking with half-knowledge about it are a popular nuisance, though. Also, describing those things as fads is _also_ very insulting to those that do struggle with these issues.
  - iopq 12y ago
    It's not a deficiency in guiding concentration. It's the complete lack of WANTING to concentrate on boring things. That's why people with ADD can easily concentrate on a video game for hours. Clearly they can guide their concentration on things they enjoy!
    - Argorak 12y ago
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adult_attention_deficit_hyperactivity_disorder http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adult_attention_deficit_hyperac... Inattentive type: In adults, these evolve into: * Delayed stop and transition of concentration from one task to another I recommend reading some of the linked papers. Be aware that there are multiple subgroups of ADD with quite a number of possible behaviors each. Quick boredom is only a sign for some of the patients, mostly those with Hyperactivity. You can have ADD without Hyperactivity.
moomin 12y ago
I wish people would stop throwing mental health diagnoses around. The article is mostly intelligent, but it bears no resemblance to any disorder. It's just a standard behaviour of the smart and bored. Me, I was like that till 16, when I met a teacher with such enthusiasm for his subject matter it carried me all the way through university. (Modulo some hiccups.) He was enthusiastic about maths, so I ended up becoming a mathematician. I imagine if he'd been a chemist I'd have done that.
lexicalscope 12y ago
I'm not super fond of the assumption that someone is bipolar simply because of going in and out of frenetic periods of activity, that isn't really what bipolar disorder is. I have bipolar (II), so here's some things: Since I only have bipolar II, I have never experienced "true" mania, but I can tell you that even hypo-mania is not what is described. Hypomania is more like having your throttle stuck on wide open and nothing you can do will make it stop. You just keep moving a mile a minute, even if you're exhausted. The thoughts just keep moving, faster and faster. You become impulsive. Have you ever bought 20 plants because you were sure it was a great idea then killed them when you became depressed? Bought $400 worth of sushi because, shit, it's a Tuesday? Those are some things that happen, out of the blue, and the thing that's maddening is that anything you do while you're manic is going to get fucked up as soon as you become depressed. And the depression isn't just melancholia, at least usually, it's something far deeper, the _inability_ to do things. You can will yourself to have motivation to do something for hours, only to find yourself hardly able to do it. It isn't even really a sadness, or disillusionment, it's a fog, it feels like you can't even think straight. As a programmer, it's a special hell, because it feels like my brain doesn't even work right. And while Lisp is great, it is no salve to that. So no, this isn't the Bipolar Lisp Programmer, this is the Stereotypical Smart Bored Youth Programmer.
- javert 12y ago
  I find your description of bipolar to be interesting, so thanks. It wasn't clear to me that the author actually meant "bipolar" in the medical sense. I think he meant something else, and it was just a convenient, but perhaps confusing, term.
  - lexicalscope 12y ago
    No worries, and I do get that, and I'm not furious about it or anything like that. I will say though, it's frustrating when you suffer from this condition to have it characterized in this way, as an adjective, in the same way I imagine it's frustrating for people that actually have Asperger's to hear that thrown around as much as it is now. That said, I can deal with my frustration, what actually worries me is that a lot of people that don't have bipolar disorder will call themselves bipolar, and make people that actually do have these problems think it's normal and that they don't need treatment or help. It's hard enough to reach out for treatment without someone telling you or implying that "oh yeah, most people have that who are smart, you just need to figure out how to be less angsty!" If that makes sense. Tl;dr: Generalizing in this way hurts people that need help, I was once one of those people, so I just want to educate people to try to avoid doing this.
lisper 12y ago
Another data point: http://blog.rongarret.info/2009/04/some-perspective-on-destroyed-career.html http://blog.rongarret.info/2009/04/some-perspective-on-destr...
dang 12y ago
https://hn.algolia.com/?q=bipolar+lisp#!/story/forever/0/bipolar%20lisp https://hn.algolia.com/?q=bipolar+lisp#!/story/forever/0/bip...
kang 12y ago
But how to deal with it?
jrapdx3 12y ago
I liked this article quite a bit, as I love to program in Lisp (well, Scheme) and I'm a clinician with a lot of experience treating bipolar disorder. That is, the real bipolar, which isn't what the author is talking about. The kind of behavior referred to in the article is certainly common. I've know many people who show this "crash and burn" pattern. Easily bored, distractible, procrastinators to the end. Black and white, all or none is their theme. Very good or lousy at any given task, usually performance varies randomly, that being a source of consternation for all involved. The unpredictability and inconsistency are vexing and corrosive in nearly all domains of life. They may be subject to moodiness, reacting strongly to criticism, and may blow up disproportionately. Such individuals may become truly depressed but that's not usual. Rather they suffer profound discouragement when things get hard and overwhelming, a state that's almost inevitable, if transient, like thunderstorms propagating flash floods of high drama and rapid dissipation. It's a condition that often responds to treatment, the right kinds of counseling, in some cases carefully applied medication therapies are useful. The college-age students who are flailing around struggling to gain traction often respond the best to proper guidance and approaches. The professor observes correctly the tremendous suffering and waste of talent that occurs. What's important is to see it for what it is and having seen it doing the things that can heal it, in the end giving no cause for pessimism at all.
- 9c38bf 12y ago
  > It's a condition Is there a name for this condition? And how do I get rid of it exactly? For some of the things you described (like strong reaction to criticism), I found mindfulness-based approaches to be good. But how do control my moods and enthusiasm?
fyolnish 12y ago
He really lost me at "lesser languages like C" Lisp is a fantastic language and I enjoy it. But to say that C is somehow lesser is dismissing the very thing required to implement lisp itself. And that's the sort of thing which causes people to dismiss lisp evangelists as fundamentalists.

83 points by auvi 12y ago

Priceless quote: "Writing in C is like building a mosaic out of lentils using a tweezer and glue." That alone makes the article worth the read in my book. :-)

lol123456 12y ago
Lisp is a failure. It failed to deliver a usable Operating System within a budget. It failed to deliver AI with even the intelligence of a donkey. It failed to deliver an efficient IDE. It failed to deliver a serialization format for the industry to use. It failed to deliver a fast interpreter for high performance applications like Games. It failed to deliver a usable framework for Web Applications for 20 years. It failed to deliver package management for libraries. If the History of Lisp is to teach us anything is that the unity of data and code is not a prerequisite to write useful applications.

iopq 12y ago

It's not bipolar, I understand those are the symptoms of ADD. Bored with everything, very high threshold for enjoyment or interest, but getting quickly bored with that same thing.

Argorak 12y ago
This is also not ADD. ADD is, among a few other things, a deficiency to guide ones concentration. Hyperfocus and repeated Hyperfocus for things you like is actually a sign of ADD. ADD people can very well do things they enjoy repeatedly and often.
- coldtea 12y ago
  It's also not something to fret over. A lot of those monikers, like ADD are thrown around with a cavalier, throw-caution-to-the-wind attitude. And I mean by doctors. Some of so-called "diseases" are actually natural responses to messed up situations (like a boring to hell school environment for a smart kid), and mostly stick as medical fads (tons of them in previous decades that are dead and burried now) and because subscribing drugs pays well.
  - Argorak 12y ago
    You are aware that ADD is, at the current state of science, considered a difference within the brain chemistry and no "reaction" to something? You don't "develop" ADD. One requirement to diagnose ADD in high age is to prove that it was there from the beginning on, in your very first years. And that cavalier attitude that you describe is actually very harmful to people that _do_ have ADD, especially those that continue to have it after a certain age. Also note that "disease" is the wrong word for this. It is a condition: you have it, it won't go away, but you can work on it and build your life around it. It's not that you necessarily _suffer_. People speaking with half-knowledge about it are a popular nuisance, though. Also, describing those things as fads is _also_ very insulting to those that do struggle with these issues.
- iopq 12y ago
  It's not a deficiency in guiding concentration. It's the complete lack of WANTING to concentrate on boring things. That's why people with ADD can easily concentrate on a video game for hours. Clearly they can guide their concentration on things they enjoy!
  - Argorak 12y ago
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adult_attention_deficit_hyperactivity_disorder http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adult_attention_deficit_hyperac... Inattentive type: In adults, these evolve into: * Delayed stop and transition of concentration from one task to another I recommend reading some of the linked papers. Be aware that there are multiple subgroups of ADD with quite a number of possible behaviors each. Quick boredom is only a sign for some of the patients, mostly those with Hyperactivity. You can have ADD without Hyperactivity.

moomin 12y ago

I wish people would stop throwing mental health diagnoses around. The article is mostly intelligent, but it bears no resemblance to any disorder. It's just a standard behaviour of the smart and bored. Me, I was like that till 16, when I met a teacher with such enthusiasm for his subject matter it carried me all the way through university. (Modulo some hiccups.) He was enthusiastic about maths, so I ended up becoming a mathematician. I imagine if he'd been a chemist I'd have done that.

lexicalscope 12y ago

I'm not super fond of the assumption that someone is bipolar simply because of going in and out of frenetic periods of activity, that isn't really what bipolar disorder is. I have bipolar (II), so here's some things: Since I only have bipolar II, I have never experienced "true" mania, but I can tell you that even hypo-mania is not what is described. Hypomania is more like having your throttle stuck on wide open and nothing you can do will make it stop. You just keep moving a mile a minute, even if you're exhausted. The thoughts just keep moving, faster and faster. You become impulsive. Have you ever bought 20 plants because you were sure it was a great idea then killed them when you became depressed? Bought $400 worth of sushi because, shit, it's a Tuesday? Those are some things that happen, out of the blue, and the thing that's maddening is that anything you do while you're manic is going to get fucked up as soon as you become depressed. And the depression isn't just melancholia, at least usually, it's something far deeper, the _inability_ to do things. You can will yourself to have motivation to do something for hours, only to find yourself hardly able to do it. It isn't even really a sadness, or disillusionment, it's a fog, it feels like you can't even think straight. As a programmer, it's a special hell, because it feels like my brain doesn't even work right. And while Lisp is great, it is no salve to that. So no, this isn't the Bipolar Lisp Programmer, this is the Stereotypical Smart Bored Youth Programmer.

javert 12y ago
I find your description of bipolar to be interesting, so thanks. It wasn't clear to me that the author actually meant "bipolar" in the medical sense. I think he meant something else, and it was just a convenient, but perhaps confusing, term.
- lexicalscope 12y ago
  No worries, and I do get that, and I'm not furious about it or anything like that. I will say though, it's frustrating when you suffer from this condition to have it characterized in this way, as an adjective, in the same way I imagine it's frustrating for people that actually have Asperger's to hear that thrown around as much as it is now. That said, I can deal with my frustration, what actually worries me is that a lot of people that don't have bipolar disorder will call themselves bipolar, and make people that actually do have these problems think it's normal and that they don't need treatment or help. It's hard enough to reach out for treatment without someone telling you or implying that "oh yeah, most people have that who are smart, you just need to figure out how to be less angsty!" If that makes sense. Tl;dr: Generalizing in this way hurts people that need help, I was once one of those people, so I just want to educate people to try to avoid doing this.

lisper 12y ago

Another data point: http://blog.rongarret.info/2009/04/some-perspective-on-destroyed-career.html http://blog.rongarret.info/2009/04/some-perspective-on-destr...

dang 12y ago

https://hn.algolia.com/?q=bipolar+lisp#!/story/forever/0/bipolar%20lisp https://hn.algolia.com/?q=bipolar+lisp#!/story/forever/0/bip...

kang 12y ago

But how to deal with it?

jrapdx3 12y ago

I liked this article quite a bit, as I love to program in Lisp (well, Scheme) and I'm a clinician with a lot of experience treating bipolar disorder. That is, the real bipolar, which isn't what the author is talking about. The kind of behavior referred to in the article is certainly common. I've know many people who show this "crash and burn" pattern. Easily bored, distractible, procrastinators to the end. Black and white, all or none is their theme. Very good or lousy at any given task, usually performance varies randomly, that being a source of consternation for all involved. The unpredictability and inconsistency are vexing and corrosive in nearly all domains of life. They may be subject to moodiness, reacting strongly to criticism, and may blow up disproportionately. Such individuals may become truly depressed but that's not usual. Rather they suffer profound discouragement when things get hard and overwhelming, a state that's almost inevitable, if transient, like thunderstorms propagating flash floods of high drama and rapid dissipation. It's a condition that often responds to treatment, the right kinds of counseling, in some cases carefully applied medication therapies are useful. The college-age students who are flailing around struggling to gain traction often respond the best to proper guidance and approaches. The professor observes correctly the tremendous suffering and waste of talent that occurs. What's important is to see it for what it is and having seen it doing the things that can heal it, in the end giving no cause for pessimism at all.

9c38bf 12y ago
> It's a condition Is there a name for this condition? And how do I get rid of it exactly? For some of the things you described (like strong reaction to criticism), I found mindfulness-based approaches to be good. But how do control my moods and enthusiasm?

fyolnish 12y ago

He really lost me at "lesser languages like C" Lisp is a fantastic language and I enjoy it. But to say that C is somehow lesser is dismissing the very thing required to implement lisp itself. And that's the sort of thing which causes people to dismiss lisp evangelists as fundamentalists.