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Earlier today, someone told me that I've "drunk the kool-aid" of my employers, Pivotal Labs. Well, it happens that I decided to work for Labs after visiting th

Earlier today, someone told me that I've "drunk the kool-aid" of my employers, Pivotal Labs. Well, it happens that I decided to work for Labs after visiting the Facebook campus. Literally while I was driving back to SF from Palo Alto. At Labs I work for 40 hours per week. Not an on-paper 40 hours -- actually 40 hours. When I was new to the company I found myself one night on a train to Philadelphia for a personal trip. I was bored, so I opened my laptop and answered some emails from a client. The following week I got a mild dressing down from my colleagues for working after-hours and I was told by my manager not to do it again. If I am at a computer more than 10 minutes after 6pm, co-workers start wandering up and saying "you're not working, are you?". I've only worked late twice, and the latest I've worked is 6.30pm (because I thought I'd broken Golang support on Pivotal Web Services and wanted to be sure I hadn't before going home). Meanwhile, at Facebook, after being shown all the cool workspaces and the free food, I asked what the hours were. "There are no hours, you set your own with your team". On my drive back to where I was staying in SF, I remembered that on their campus, I'd seen a barber's shop. It struck me that, so that you don't leave for 30 minutes, once a month, Facebook has a barber on the campus. Someone later pointed out to me that the buses they run have wifi. So life becomes: wake up, shower, get on bus, work, get off bus, breakfast, work, lunch, work, dinner, work, get on bus, work, get home, sleep. Frankly? I prefer the damn kool-aid.

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
zeroonetwothree 12y ago
I'm an engineer at FB and I work 6-8 hours most days. Most people with families don't work crazy hours. Most people that do choose to because they love their work.
- jacques_chester 12y ago
  We love our work too. We just think it should stay at work, during sustainable working hours.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
- rgbrenner 12y ago
  "Most people with families don't work crazy hours." With an average age of 28[0].. what percentage do you think have families? 0. http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/07/05/technology-workers-are-young-really-young/?_r=0 http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/07/05/technology-workers-...
- Chinjut 12y ago
  "I love my cigar, too, but I take it out of my mouth once in a while."
vellum 12y ago
so I opened my laptop and answered some emails from a client. The following week I got a mild dressing down from my colleagues for working after-hours and I was told by my manager not to do it again. That happened to me at my old non-tech job. By answering a client's emails, you train them to expect you to be on call, which hurts the whole team.
- jacques_chester 12y ago
  Yep. And we were trying to encourage the client to let their developers go home too. I've been handing out free kool-aid samples pretty much since that first project.
lstyls 12y ago
I was a Software Engineering intern on an ads product team at Facebook last summer. My experience was almost exactly the opposite of what you assume here. Most people worked 7-8 hour days. I stayed plenty of late nights because I was dead-set on getting a full-time offer, but I was literally the only one on my entire floor most nights (including interns). On the off chance someone stopped in late and saw me, they were honestly shocked and insisted I go home. The team working next to mine had a major product launch during the time I was there. A few of them (2 or 3) stayed in until 8 PM for the two nights immediate proceeding launch. That's it. One of the biggest surprises to me coming from undergrad was just how little the engineers worked at a company like FB. There is a pride in efficiency in the Facebook culture, and an working effectively is more valued than putting in long hours. Of course, that was my experience on one team. I'm sure some teams work longer hours than others. That said, I think you'd be hard pressed to find an engineering shop that had a healthier work-life balance than Facebook. The idea that its a 'meat grinder' is laughable. I saw another comment suggesting that FB employees leaving after 8-10 years is a sign of burn-out. Are you kidding? In this business 8-10 years is lifetimes.
- _RPM 12y ago
  So, did you end up getting a full-time offer?
  - lstyls 12y ago
    I did! I start next month, couldn't be more excited.
    - _RPM 12y ago
      Excellent. What was the interview like? Were the coding questions hard?
- jacques_chester 12y ago
  > I'm sure some teams work longer hours than others. That's actually a point I implied but didn't expand. If you don't set a standard, any one employee's experience is going to depend on the local subculture. So it's a lottery. Maybe I'm in the team composed of grizzled 3-4 year veterans, who've seen it all, some of whom have young families or hobbies outside of work. Or I fluke into the team of whizkids who moved to Palo Alto 3 months ago, straight out of college, and who have no social life and nothing to do except work at the most exciting stuff they've ever done in their lives. Alternatively, I can work at a company where 40 hours is always 40 hours, no matter what project you're on, no matter what your life situation is, no matter how long you've worked there -- and regardless of when the Big Project Is Launching.
prostoalex 12y ago
Every product goes through design-development-testing-launch-maintenance cycle (with occasional major bug fixing between launch and maintenance). It's natural to work in overdrive during the launch phase, but is just not that productive during any of the other phases. With Facebook's breadth of products someone somewhere is always launching, so it's reasonable to assume that some employees are putting in 50-hour weeks for a short period of time.
- jacques_chester 12y ago
  At Pivotal Labs we don't increase hours worked. We reduce scope by dropping the least-valuable stories. http://pivotallabs.com/crunch-time/ http://pivotallabs.com/crunch-time/
pmoriarty 12y ago
More important than official lines on hours worked or dressing down by colleagues for working late is how realistic the company is about what's expected of you and the resources you are given to achieve it. If you are assigned more work than you can achive in 40 hours, yet only given 40 hours to do it in, you are either being set up for failure, or the company really does want you to work as many hours as it takes, but just not be so open about it.
kumarm 12y ago
[Earlier today, someone told me that I've "drunk the kool-aid" of my employers, Pivotal Labs.] I guess perspectives can be very different. I consider "Kool-Aid' you are referring to as plain insult to software engineering :). Couple of years back Pivotallabs was preaching ideal pair programming. I am assuming it still does? If two people using a single keyboard, single Monitor is so efficient how come CEO's and CFO's, aren't advised to use the same approach? Is it because Developers are just lineworkers with no individual creativity? I would never consider working at a company like that :).
- jacques_chester 12y ago
  We don't "preach" pair programming. It's how we work. We're hiring. If you want to see what it's like, apply. We use pair programming sessions as the core of our hiring process.
  - jes5199 12y ago
    ah, right, that's why I don't work there, I had forgotten.
    - jacques_chester 12y ago
      I don't understand the ire. It's a straight up great place to work.
      - jes5199 12y ago
        it's great if you like to pair program every day. I get sick of pairing after about 3 hours. So it's not one-size-fits-all but I often meet people who can't imagine disliking pairing and try to convince me that my lived experience is somehow incorrect but theirs is accurate.
        jacques_chester 12y ago
        Thanks for expanding. Personally, I agree with you: pair programming is not suitable for everyone. After a day of pairing I definitely want some quiet time. We recently had an energetic internal discussion about whether we are simply selecting for extraversion in our process. I suspect we're probably filtering out very strong introverts, but I've honestly seen a wide band of personalities. I've worked with men and women ranging from those who are chatty as I am, to the downright laconic. Some who want to socialise after work, to others like me who just want to go home for some personal time.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

zeroonetwothree 12y ago

I'm an engineer at FB and I work 6-8 hours most days. Most people with families don't work crazy hours. Most people that do choose to because they love their work.

jacques_chester 12y ago
We love our work too. We just think it should stay at work, during sustainable working hours.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
rgbrenner 12y ago
"Most people with families don't work crazy hours." With an average age of 28[0].. what percentage do you think have families? 0. http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/07/05/technology-workers-are-young-really-young/?_r=0 http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/07/05/technology-workers-...
Chinjut 12y ago
"I love my cigar, too, but I take it out of my mouth once in a while."

vellum 12y ago

so I opened my laptop and answered some emails from a client. The following week I got a mild dressing down from my colleagues for working after-hours and I was told by my manager not to do it again. That happened to me at my old non-tech job. By answering a client's emails, you train them to expect you to be on call, which hurts the whole team.

jacques_chester 12y ago
Yep. And we were trying to encourage the client to let their developers go home too. I've been handing out free kool-aid samples pretty much since that first project.

lstyls 12y ago

I was a Software Engineering intern on an ads product team at Facebook last summer. My experience was almost exactly the opposite of what you assume here. Most people worked 7-8 hour days. I stayed plenty of late nights because I was dead-set on getting a full-time offer, but I was literally the only one on my entire floor most nights (including interns). On the off chance someone stopped in late and saw me, they were honestly shocked and insisted I go home. The team working next to mine had a major product launch during the time I was there. A few of them (2 or 3) stayed in until 8 PM for the two nights immediate proceeding launch. That's it. One of the biggest surprises to me coming from undergrad was just how little the engineers worked at a company like FB. There is a pride in efficiency in the Facebook culture, and an working effectively is more valued than putting in long hours. Of course, that was my experience on one team. I'm sure some teams work longer hours than others. That said, I think you'd be hard pressed to find an engineering shop that had a healthier work-life balance than Facebook. The idea that its a 'meat grinder' is laughable. I saw another comment suggesting that FB employees leaving after 8-10 years is a sign of burn-out. Are you kidding? In this business 8-10 years is lifetimes.

_RPM 12y ago
So, did you end up getting a full-time offer?
- lstyls 12y ago
  I did! I start next month, couldn't be more excited.
  - _RPM 12y ago
    Excellent. What was the interview like? Were the coding questions hard?
jacques_chester 12y ago
> I'm sure some teams work longer hours than others. That's actually a point I implied but didn't expand. If you don't set a standard, any one employee's experience is going to depend on the local subculture. So it's a lottery. Maybe I'm in the team composed of grizzled 3-4 year veterans, who've seen it all, some of whom have young families or hobbies outside of work. Or I fluke into the team of whizkids who moved to Palo Alto 3 months ago, straight out of college, and who have no social life and nothing to do except work at the most exciting stuff they've ever done in their lives. Alternatively, I can work at a company where 40 hours is always 40 hours, no matter what project you're on, no matter what your life situation is, no matter how long you've worked there -- and regardless of when the Big Project Is Launching.

prostoalex 12y ago

Every product goes through design-development-testing-launch-maintenance cycle (with occasional major bug fixing between launch and maintenance). It's natural to work in overdrive during the launch phase, but is just not that productive during any of the other phases. With Facebook's breadth of products someone somewhere is always launching, so it's reasonable to assume that some employees are putting in 50-hour weeks for a short period of time.

jacques_chester 12y ago
At Pivotal Labs we don't increase hours worked. We reduce scope by dropping the least-valuable stories. http://pivotallabs.com/crunch-time/ http://pivotallabs.com/crunch-time/

pmoriarty 12y ago

More important than official lines on hours worked or dressing down by colleagues for working late is how realistic the company is about what's expected of you and the resources you are given to achieve it. If you are assigned more work than you can achive in 40 hours, yet only given 40 hours to do it in, you are either being set up for failure, or the company really does want you to work as many hours as it takes, but just not be so open about it.

kumarm 12y ago

[Earlier today, someone told me that I've "drunk the kool-aid" of my employers, Pivotal Labs.] I guess perspectives can be very different. I consider "Kool-Aid' you are referring to as plain insult to software engineering :). Couple of years back Pivotallabs was preaching ideal pair programming. I am assuming it still does? If two people using a single keyboard, single Monitor is so efficient how come CEO's and CFO's, aren't advised to use the same approach? Is it because Developers are just lineworkers with no individual creativity? I would never consider working at a company like that :).

jacques_chester 12y ago
We don't "preach" pair programming. It's how we work. We're hiring. If you want to see what it's like, apply. We use pair programming sessions as the core of our hiring process.
- jes5199 12y ago
  ah, right, that's why I don't work there, I had forgotten.
  - jacques_chester 12y ago
    I don't understand the ire. It's a straight up great place to work.
    - jes5199 12y ago
      it's great if you like to pair program every day. I get sick of pairing after about 3 hours. So it's not one-size-fits-all but I often meet people who can't imagine disliking pairing and try to convince me that my lived experience is somehow incorrect but theirs is accurate.
      - jacques_chester 12y ago
        Thanks for expanding. Personally, I agree with you: pair programming is not suitable for everyone. After a day of pairing I definitely want some quiet time. We recently had an energetic internal discussion about whether we are simply selecting for extraversion in our process. I suspect we're probably filtering out very strong introverts, but I've honestly seen a wide band of personalities. I've worked with men and women ranging from those who are chatty as I am, to the downright laconic. Some who want to socialise after work, to others like me who just want to go home for some personal time.