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I have a quick question for those arguing against PG's position: Do you genuinely believe that increasing the number of talented software engineers emigrating

I have a quick question for those arguing against PG's position: Do you genuinely believe that increasing the number of talented software engineers emigrating to the United States is bad for the United States? Or bad for you? In the same way that I would argue for public policy that benefits us all (not just me), I think we should have immigration policies that benefit everyone, not just Software Engineers.

hacknat 12y ago
It could be bad for me and the US, no? Not saying it is, but it is an option. I'm skeptical a sane immigration bill can get passed. The current H1 visas are incredibly generous to the companies that get to sponsor them over the workers. I'd be in favor of a policy that was company agnostic and gave the workers a lot more freedom, such a bill would be good for me, the immigrants, and the U.S., but I sincerely doubt such a bill would ever get passed.
- andrewmutz 12y ago
  I don't know what H1-B visas you are used to, but the current ones are completely owned by the worker. An employee sponsored by an H1-B can literally collect their first paycheck and immediately move to another employer. I'm not sure how much more freedom you want.
  - andrewmutz 12y ago
    Instead of downvotes, I'd love to see some data contradicting this. Here is information supporting it: http://www.h1base.com/visa/work/h1b%20visa%20transfer%20to%20a%20new%20employer/ref/1169/ http://www.h1base.com/visa/work/h1b%20visa%20transfer%20to%2... http://www.usavisanow.com/h-1b-visa/h1b-visa-resources/h-1b-transfer/ http://www.usavisanow.com/h-1b-visa/h1b-visa-resources/h-1b-...
waterlesscloud 12y ago
Drive down the wages of your most talented citizens and yes, you hurt the entire country.
- andrewmutz 12y ago
  So just to be clear, if we have more Doctors & Lawyers, so their wages decrease, and the cost of receiving medical care or getting legal help goes down, this would be bad for everyone?
  - waterlesscloud 12y ago
    Yes. Then your most talented citizens will go into other work and the quality provided will go down. This is really quite simple. If there's ways for the most talented to make more money, that's where they're going. The most talented aren't locked into any particular career. Sure, there will be exceptions, but the overall trend will be undeniable.
    - andrewmutz 12y ago
      As long as Hospitals and Law firms continue to hire competent Doctors and Lawyers, this would be a win for society. More people getting health care or access to the legal system, at lower prices, would be a good thing for society. And I don't see any reason why an increase in the number of Doctors or Lawyers would cause Hospitals or Law firms to hire incompetent employees.
      - waterlesscloud 12y ago
        We actually have a surplus of lawyers right now, at this very moment. Large numbers of people with law degrees are unable to find work in the field. So fewer people are going to law school. And this is true even at the top end. The most talented people are going into law in lesser numbers. It's not a theory, it's actual fact.
        cheez 12y ago
        That's pretty much how free markets operate. There is nothing wrong with it. The idea that X profession deserves the smartest kid in the room is nonsense if the profession has found out how to get along without that kid.
jacalata 12y ago
c) I am skeptical that pg's proposal would substantially increase the number of truly great programmers who could come to the US, and I believe it would actually just increase the pool of decent programmers which is already large enough to meet demand: so the net effect would be the same companies and software being created, but less money being paid in salaries and therefore spent on consumption, which is worse both for this pool of decent engineers and for the governments which lose out on the taxes they could have gained from the distribution of money from pg and other rich investors to the employee engineers.
UK-AL 12y ago
It's bad for me, and I would likely try to switch to another profession and get an MBA or something with higher pay. Then do interesting programming on the side

hacknat 12y ago

It could be bad for me and the US, no? Not saying it is, but it is an option. I'm skeptical a sane immigration bill can get passed. The current H1 visas are incredibly generous to the companies that get to sponsor them over the workers. I'd be in favor of a policy that was company agnostic and gave the workers a lot more freedom, such a bill would be good for me, the immigrants, and the U.S., but I sincerely doubt such a bill would ever get passed.

andrewmutz 12y ago
I don't know what H1-B visas you are used to, but the current ones are completely owned by the worker. An employee sponsored by an H1-B can literally collect their first paycheck and immediately move to another employer. I'm not sure how much more freedom you want.
- andrewmutz 12y ago
  Instead of downvotes, I'd love to see some data contradicting this. Here is information supporting it: http://www.h1base.com/visa/work/h1b%20visa%20transfer%20to%20a%20new%20employer/ref/1169/ http://www.h1base.com/visa/work/h1b%20visa%20transfer%20to%2... http://www.usavisanow.com/h-1b-visa/h1b-visa-resources/h-1b-transfer/ http://www.usavisanow.com/h-1b-visa/h1b-visa-resources/h-1b-...

waterlesscloud 12y ago

Drive down the wages of your most talented citizens and yes, you hurt the entire country.

andrewmutz 12y ago
So just to be clear, if we have more Doctors & Lawyers, so their wages decrease, and the cost of receiving medical care or getting legal help goes down, this would be bad for everyone?
- waterlesscloud 12y ago
  Yes. Then your most talented citizens will go into other work and the quality provided will go down. This is really quite simple. If there's ways for the most talented to make more money, that's where they're going. The most talented aren't locked into any particular career. Sure, there will be exceptions, but the overall trend will be undeniable.
  - andrewmutz 12y ago
    As long as Hospitals and Law firms continue to hire competent Doctors and Lawyers, this would be a win for society. More people getting health care or access to the legal system, at lower prices, would be a good thing for society. And I don't see any reason why an increase in the number of Doctors or Lawyers would cause Hospitals or Law firms to hire incompetent employees.
    - waterlesscloud 12y ago
      We actually have a surplus of lawyers right now, at this very moment. Large numbers of people with law degrees are unable to find work in the field. So fewer people are going to law school. And this is true even at the top end. The most talented people are going into law in lesser numbers. It's not a theory, it's actual fact.
      - cheez 12y ago
        That's pretty much how free markets operate. There is nothing wrong with it. The idea that X profession deserves the smartest kid in the room is nonsense if the profession has found out how to get along without that kid.

jacalata 12y ago

c) I am skeptical that pg's proposal would substantially increase the number of truly great programmers who could come to the US, and I believe it would actually just increase the pool of decent programmers which is already large enough to meet demand: so the net effect would be the same companies and software being created, but less money being paid in salaries and therefore spent on consumption, which is worse both for this pool of decent engineers and for the governments which lose out on the taxes they could have gained from the distribution of money from pg and other rich investors to the employee engineers.

UK-AL 12y ago

It's bad for me, and I would likely try to switch to another profession and get an MBA or something with higher pay. Then do interesting programming on the side