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I generally find PG very convincing, but not here. Opening up immigration would have major side effects, though probably it would help companies hire top progra

I generally find PG very convincing, but not here. Opening up immigration would have major side effects, though probably it would help companies hire top programmers. But rather than bear that cost, would we as a society be better off if we tried to educate children better, get more kids hooked on being makers, whatever it is you believe is important? Fundamentally, making the 95-to-5 population comparison only makes sense if the 5% is at or near maximum utilization. And it's not at all obvious that American potential talent is that heavily utilized. As an aside, it's also not at all obvious to me that we can't teach exceptional programming, at least for some people. In fact, the idea that top programmers are vastly better than merely good programmers is also not obvious to me. Think about lifting things: Perhaps I can lift 50kg and some one else 52kg. If the task is to lift a 51kg object, the other person is infinitely better than me. But if the task is just to lift moderate weight objects, we are indistinguishable. Similarly it seems plausible that for most tasks "very good" programmers are indistinguishable from"great" ones.

OmarIsmail 12y ago
Do you think YC startups are lying when they say they're struggling to hire? It is obviously in our best interests to hire every great programmer we come across - no matter what. If you really think that there are some great developers out there who are struggling to find a job in the US please send them my way or send them to ANY of the YC startups and they'll be hired within 2 weeks. How long do you think it takes to teach someone to be an exceptional programmer? 5 years? 10 years? How long has Facebook been around? How long have most small tech companies been around? Yes, in 10-20 years after all the parents today are telling their children to get into software we'll have a glut of developers. But right now, there's obviously not enough. And the quickest way out is to relax the limits on immigration. If the US doesn't do it, then it's a great opportunity for another attractive first-world country to take the lead. Maybe Canada will.
- Roboprog 12y ago
  Stop trying to shove more people into the SF bay area peninsula? A 100K/yr salary won't buy, or even rent, much of a place for a family to live in near Palo Alto or San Francisco. But it sure will in Sacramento. ... or Fresno, or Portland, or Seattle, or Denver, or Phoenix, or Boise, or Minneapolis, ... The tech industry needs to think outside the Silicon Valley box, and consider that while people should be grouped together for networking and other multiplier effects, it might be time to have more than one town in which to do business - a location that is not so closed in with outrageous real estate costs. I almost took a job in Mtn View a few years ago, but wanted a 50% salary increase (vs Sacramento) to compensate for housing. So, it didn't happen.
- gaius 12y ago
  No, they probably are struggling, because being an early stage startup engineer is a very, very bad deal. You will work as hard as the founders, and after a year or two the salary you gave up for stock options will equal at least the cash the founders put in themselves, and if it is a success, you will get 1% of 1% of what they do. People are beginning to realize this and demand market level wages or meaningful equity participation or both. What these companies and the VC firms backing them want is a new set of naive prospective early stage engineers...

OmarIsmail 12y ago

Do you think YC startups are lying when they say they're struggling to hire? It is obviously in our best interests to hire every great programmer we come across - no matter what. If you really think that there are some great developers out there who are struggling to find a job in the US please send them my way or send them to ANY of the YC startups and they'll be hired within 2 weeks. How long do you think it takes to teach someone to be an exceptional programmer? 5 years? 10 years? How long has Facebook been around? How long have most small tech companies been around? Yes, in 10-20 years after all the parents today are telling their children to get into software we'll have a glut of developers. But right now, there's obviously not enough. And the quickest way out is to relax the limits on immigration. If the US doesn't do it, then it's a great opportunity for another attractive first-world country to take the lead. Maybe Canada will.

Roboprog 12y ago
Stop trying to shove more people into the SF bay area peninsula? A 100K/yr salary won't buy, or even rent, much of a place for a family to live in near Palo Alto or San Francisco. But it sure will in Sacramento. ... or Fresno, or Portland, or Seattle, or Denver, or Phoenix, or Boise, or Minneapolis, ... The tech industry needs to think outside the Silicon Valley box, and consider that while people should be grouped together for networking and other multiplier effects, it might be time to have more than one town in which to do business - a location that is not so closed in with outrageous real estate costs. I almost took a job in Mtn View a few years ago, but wanted a 50% salary increase (vs Sacramento) to compensate for housing. So, it didn't happen.
gaius 12y ago
No, they probably are struggling, because being an early stage startup engineer is a very, very bad deal. You will work as hard as the founders, and after a year or two the salary you gave up for stock options will equal at least the cash the founders put in themselves, and if it is a success, you will get 1% of 1% of what they do. People are beginning to realize this and demand market level wages or meaningful equity participation or both. What these companies and the VC firms backing them want is a new set of naive prospective early stage engineers...