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Yeah, agreed. I just wanted to make clear that you could believe in the historicity of Jesus without having to accept the Liar/Lunatic/Lord dilemma, since Jesus

by olavk 12y ago

Yeah, agreed. I just wanted to make clear that you could believe in the historicity of Jesus without having to accept the Liar/Lunatic/Lord dilemma, since Jesus never claimed to be "Lord" in the first place.

eurleif 12y ago
"I and the Father are one." --Jesus in John 10:30
- olavk 12y ago
  Yeah, John is the latest gospel where he is presented as much more "divine". Compare to Mark, which is the earliest gospel.
  - lotharbot 12y ago
    John is the "in your face" gospel -- it leads with the conclusions. The other three are more like "come along for the journey" -- they walk you through the process of the disciples coming to understand Jesus. There are divinity claims all over those gospels, but they're more subtle. For example, early in the gospel of Matthew, Jesus quotes the Old Testament saying "You are to worship the Lord your God and serve only him." At the very end of Matthew, Jesus meets the disciples, who worship him, and he does not criticize them or stop them (contrast with Peter in Acts 10.) Once that connection is made, it's an obvious divinity claim -- but it's one that might take time to realize is there. A few other examples: Psalm 103 says the Lord "is the one who forgives all your sins"; Jesus does it in Mark 2. Both Isaiah 43 and Hosea 13 specify that God alone is Savior, and Luke 1:47 repeats it just prior to calling Jesus the Savior in Luke 2:11. Deuteronomy 10 establishes heaven as entirely God's property, but Jesus claims to be the one controlling entry to heaven in Matthew 7. Given Jesus' obviously strong knowledge of the Hebrew scriptures, it's hard to get away from the conclusion that he was making intentional claims of being God.
    - JoeAltmaier 12y ago
      But he wasn't writing the gospels. So we don't know what he intended, only what the reporter wrote down. And they were in the storey. So the possibility of slant is clear.
      - lotharbot 12y ago
        sure -- but we know the reporter wrote down divinity claims, even in the earliest gospels. Keep in mind the Lord-Liar-Lunatic argument is aimed at those who claim "Jesus is a great moral teacher" based on the things Jesus is quoted as saying. Jesus is quoted as making divinity claims, many of which are obvious if you have good knowledge of Hebrew scriptures and religious practices. The "Legend" option (Jesus didn't really say those things) is still open, but that makes it harder to claim anything about the value of Jesus' moral teachings.
        JoeAltmaier 12y ago
        Well the 'obvious' thing is what's at issue. Because he (apparently) didn't refute other's claim of his divinity isn't a sure bet that he was devine - that's a very indirect thing and nothing obvious about it.
        lotharbot 12y ago
        It's very obvious if you're as familiar with Hebrew scriptures as Jesus seems to be. The claim in Matthew 7 is much more explicit to modern readers -- Jesus is discussing how people will get into heaven or not based on his say-so.
    - olavk 12y ago
      Only if you already have decided that this is the conclusion you want to reach. Which is totally fair as a kind of religious meditation over the biblical texts, but it not likely to convince anybody not yet convinced. For example Jesus states that he hands Peter the keys to heaven, which following this logic then turns Peter into God. And in the Lords Prayer, Jesus instructs his followers to forgive sins, which according to your logic turns them all into God.

by olavk 12y ago

eurleif 12y ago

"I and the Father are one." --Jesus in John 10:30

olavk 12y ago
Yeah, John is the latest gospel where he is presented as much more "divine". Compare to Mark, which is the earliest gospel.
- lotharbot 12y ago
  John is the "in your face" gospel -- it leads with the conclusions. The other three are more like "come along for the journey" -- they walk you through the process of the disciples coming to understand Jesus. There are divinity claims all over those gospels, but they're more subtle. For example, early in the gospel of Matthew, Jesus quotes the Old Testament saying "You are to worship the Lord your God and serve only him." At the very end of Matthew, Jesus meets the disciples, who worship him, and he does not criticize them or stop them (contrast with Peter in Acts 10.) Once that connection is made, it's an obvious divinity claim -- but it's one that might take time to realize is there. A few other examples: Psalm 103 says the Lord "is the one who forgives all your sins"; Jesus does it in Mark 2. Both Isaiah 43 and Hosea 13 specify that God alone is Savior, and Luke 1:47 repeats it just prior to calling Jesus the Savior in Luke 2:11. Deuteronomy 10 establishes heaven as entirely God's property, but Jesus claims to be the one controlling entry to heaven in Matthew 7. Given Jesus' obviously strong knowledge of the Hebrew scriptures, it's hard to get away from the conclusion that he was making intentional claims of being God.
  - JoeAltmaier 12y ago
    But he wasn't writing the gospels. So we don't know what he intended, only what the reporter wrote down. And they were in the storey. So the possibility of slant is clear.
    - lotharbot 12y ago
      sure -- but we know the reporter wrote down divinity claims, even in the earliest gospels. Keep in mind the Lord-Liar-Lunatic argument is aimed at those who claim "Jesus is a great moral teacher" based on the things Jesus is quoted as saying. Jesus is quoted as making divinity claims, many of which are obvious if you have good knowledge of Hebrew scriptures and religious practices. The "Legend" option (Jesus didn't really say those things) is still open, but that makes it harder to claim anything about the value of Jesus' moral teachings.
      - JoeAltmaier 12y ago
        Well the 'obvious' thing is what's at issue. Because he (apparently) didn't refute other's claim of his divinity isn't a sure bet that he was devine - that's a very indirect thing and nothing obvious about it.
        lotharbot 12y ago
        It's very obvious if you're as familiar with Hebrew scriptures as Jesus seems to be. The claim in Matthew 7 is much more explicit to modern readers -- Jesus is discussing how people will get into heaven or not based on his say-so.
  - olavk 12y ago
    Only if you already have decided that this is the conclusion you want to reach. Which is totally fair as a kind of religious meditation over the biblical texts, but it not likely to convince anybody not yet convinced. For example Jesus states that he hands Peter the keys to heaven, which following this logic then turns Peter into God. And in the Lords Prayer, Jesus instructs his followers to forgive sins, which according to your logic turns them all into God.