3 ms·

Yeah, because all PHP programmers are idiots right? :(

cperciva 12y ago
Let's just say that there's a strong correlation. ;-) EDIT: To elaborate: I'm definitely not saying that all PHP developers are idiots. But PHP is a much easier language to learn than many others, so it gains a lot of users at the low end of the ability spectrum. There are just as many talented and security-aware Windows users as there are talented and security-aware Debian users, but there are far more untalented and security-unaware Windows users.
- sarciszewski 12y ago
  --$respect['cperciva']; The implication in your word choice came across as unfair and elitist. > EDIT: To elaborate: I'm definitely not saying that all PHP developers are idiots. But PHP is a much easier language to learn than many others, so it gains a lot of users at the low end of the ability spectrum. There are just as many talented and security-aware Windows users as there are talented and security-aware Debian users, but there are far more untalented and security-unaware Windows users. Okay, that's a fair statement. I thought you were calling ME an idiot :P
  - cperciva 12y ago
    I thought you were calling ME an idiot Not at all. Until now I didn't realize you were a PHP developer.
- mikegioia 12y ago
  I can't believe I have to say this to you, but suggesting there's a "strong correlation" between PHP developers and idiots is a complete insult. It's actually bigotry in action. To further suggest you held back a better solution because you assumed the PHP developer was too stupid to understand file hashing is both another insult and bad practice. It doesn't matter if there's 10 or 10 million PHP developers, it's still insulting. You sell a product online, and you've now alienated a large developer community. I'll never recommend or sign up for tarsnap now.
  - cperciva 12y ago
    To further suggest you held back a better solution because you assumed the PHP developer was too stupid to understand file hashing is both another insult and bad practice. It wasn't a better solution. It was one of many alternatives which came to mind; but I offered them the best solution (serve the graphs from a PHP script) and the easiest solution (run a cron job to delete the old graphs).
  - SamReidHughes 12y ago
    Using PHP is a choice, it's not innate. You are not defined by the programming language you choose to be.
- thaumaturgy 12y ago
  I'm a PHP programmer too. I've also been a C, C++, Pascal, WFL, COBOL74, 68k assembly, etc. etc. etc. programmer for the last 30ish years (and paid off and on for it for almost 20 now, by all kinds of different places). I also founded a local developer group, and I certainly wasn't the least knowledgeable guy there when it comes to application security. I get that you didn't intend it as an insult, and you probably didn't have people like me in mind when you made that comment. However, the relatively recent "PHP programmers are stupid" thing has so turned me off to any kind of programming discussion that I now habitually avoid any discussion of programming at all -- for the first time in all my years as a programmer.
  - mikegioia 12y ago
    Thank you! I just sent a long email to the HN moderators about this very issue. This pervasive anti-PHP mentality is rampant and actively discourages me (and other PHP devs) from contributing.
derefr 12y ago
No, it's rather that all idiots are PHP programmers; or rather, that PHP attracts idiots. You can certainly be a non-idiotic PHP programmer, and there may certainly be just as many good PHP programmers as there are good programmers for any other language. But you, and they, are outnumbered by the bad "this is my first language and first project" programmers, who tend to adopt PHP for that purpose. and because of that, if you know nothing else about a programmer, knowing that they primarily program in PHP should tend to be Bayesian evidence against their programming skill/experience, just like knowing someone lives in India should tend to be Bayesian evidence against the likelihood of them being wealthy, or knowing someone likes {pop, classic rock, modern country} music should be Bayesian evidence against the diversity of their taste in music. It's not that there aren't tons of counterexamples; it's that there's this one huge overlapping subgroup that happens to have that property, and dominates any statistical effects. (Respectively, "people learning their first language"; "people born in poverty with no way out"; and "people who only listen to music provided by their single local radio station.") Of course, if some other language were easier to learn than PHP, the dominating subgroup of "people who know 0.5 programming languages" would become attached to that language instead of PHP. So the fact that this group is attached to PHP is actually a point in favour of PHP as a platform. It's still a point against its statistical median user.
- rwallace 12y ago
  On the one hand, there is truth in what you say about the statistics. On the other hand, treating individuals as though they were statistics tends to be boorish and obnoxious behavior. If you were running a forum for discussing sports cars, for example, you probably wouldn't consider it acceptable to say 'Indians are not welcome on this site, they haven't got any money so they wouldn't know anything about sports cars'. Similarly, if you encounter a bad programmer who uses PHP, it's fine to criticize him for being a bad programmer. It's not okay to insult PHP programmers in general.

Let's just say that there's a strong correlation. ;-) EDIT: To elaborate: I'm definitely not saying that all PHP developers are idiots. But PHP is a much easier language to learn than many others, so it gains a lot of users at the low end of the ability spectrum. There are just as many talented and security-aware Windows users as there are talented and security-aware Debian users, but there are far more untalented and security-unaware Windows users.

sarciszewski 12y ago
--$respect['cperciva']; The implication in your word choice came across as unfair and elitist. > EDIT: To elaborate: I'm definitely not saying that all PHP developers are idiots. But PHP is a much easier language to learn than many others, so it gains a lot of users at the low end of the ability spectrum. There are just as many talented and security-aware Windows users as there are talented and security-aware Debian users, but there are far more untalented and security-unaware Windows users. Okay, that's a fair statement. I thought you were calling ME an idiot :P
- cperciva 12y ago
  I thought you were calling ME an idiot Not at all. Until now I didn't realize you were a PHP developer.
mikegioia 12y ago
I can't believe I have to say this to you, but suggesting there's a "strong correlation" between PHP developers and idiots is a complete insult. It's actually bigotry in action. To further suggest you held back a better solution because you assumed the PHP developer was too stupid to understand file hashing is both another insult and bad practice. It doesn't matter if there's 10 or 10 million PHP developers, it's still insulting. You sell a product online, and you've now alienated a large developer community. I'll never recommend or sign up for tarsnap now.
- cperciva 12y ago
  To further suggest you held back a better solution because you assumed the PHP developer was too stupid to understand file hashing is both another insult and bad practice. It wasn't a better solution. It was one of many alternatives which came to mind; but I offered them the best solution (serve the graphs from a PHP script) and the easiest solution (run a cron job to delete the old graphs).
- SamReidHughes 12y ago
  Using PHP is a choice, it's not innate. You are not defined by the programming language you choose to be.
thaumaturgy 12y ago
I'm a PHP programmer too. I've also been a C, C++, Pascal, WFL, COBOL74, 68k assembly, etc. etc. etc. programmer for the last 30ish years (and paid off and on for it for almost 20 now, by all kinds of different places). I also founded a local developer group, and I certainly wasn't the least knowledgeable guy there when it comes to application security. I get that you didn't intend it as an insult, and you probably didn't have people like me in mind when you made that comment. However, the relatively recent "PHP programmers are stupid" thing has so turned me off to any kind of programming discussion that I now habitually avoid any discussion of programming at all -- for the first time in all my years as a programmer.
- mikegioia 12y ago
  Thank you! I just sent a long email to the HN moderators about this very issue. This pervasive anti-PHP mentality is rampant and actively discourages me (and other PHP devs) from contributing.

derefr 12y ago

No, it's rather that all idiots are PHP programmers; or rather, that PHP attracts idiots. You can certainly be a non-idiotic PHP programmer, and there may certainly be just as many good PHP programmers as there are good programmers for any other language. But you, and they, are outnumbered by the bad "this is my first language and first project" programmers, who tend to adopt PHP for that purpose. and because of that, if you know nothing else about a programmer, knowing that they primarily program in PHP should tend to be Bayesian evidence against their programming skill/experience, just like knowing someone lives in India should tend to be Bayesian evidence against the likelihood of them being wealthy, or knowing someone likes {pop, classic rock, modern country} music should be Bayesian evidence against the diversity of their taste in music. It's not that there aren't tons of counterexamples; it's that there's this one huge overlapping subgroup that happens to have that property, and dominates any statistical effects. (Respectively, "people learning their first language"; "people born in poverty with no way out"; and "people who only listen to music provided by their single local radio station.") Of course, if some other language were easier to learn than PHP, the dominating subgroup of "people who know 0.5 programming languages" would become attached to that language instead of PHP. So the fact that this group is attached to PHP is actually a point in favour of PHP as a platform. It's still a point against its statistical median user.

rwallace 12y ago
On the one hand, there is truth in what you say about the statistics. On the other hand, treating individuals as though they were statistics tends to be boorish and obnoxious behavior. If you were running a forum for discussing sports cars, for example, you probably wouldn't consider it acceptable to say 'Indians are not welcome on this site, they haven't got any money so they wouldn't know anything about sports cars'. Similarly, if you encounter a bad programmer who uses PHP, it's fine to criticize him for being a bad programmer. It's not okay to insult PHP programmers in general.