5 ms·

I was given some old BBS session logs and I scanned them

90 points by salgernon 12y ago

salgernon 12y ago
The link to the pdf on archive.org: https://archive.org/details/8BBSArchiveP1V1 https://archive.org/details/8BBSArchiveP1V1 But I like the narrative in the original link.
SwellJoe 12y ago
After reading a couple of pages of this, I had one of those moments where I feel sort of like the earth is shifting beneath me, and everything feels unreal for a moment. It struck me (hard) that in my lifetime, I have watched technology go from these printouts, to what we have today. I used my first BBS in around 1986, and it hadn't yet evolved terribly far from where it was when these archives were produced. It's both amazing and terrible (in the "extreme in extent or degree; intense" sense) to think about. In 1980, that was a pretty impressive piece of machinery, but it was not even in the same league as a smart watch today. But, raw numbers (32k, 1.5MB disks) don't begin to express how different the world we live in today is. At the time this BBS was almost unique. A few thousand people in the entire world used an online messaging system like this. Today about 3 billion people are online somehow, and the majority of people under 30 in the developed world use some sort of online messaging every day. Long distance telephone calls were expensive enough that few people made them more than occasionally. International communication was an extreme rarity except for the richest and most powerful. (And, 12 year old me had to break the law to communicate across the country, using stolen calling cards to call BBSes in other states.) The 8BBS software, unique and impressive for its time, was positively simplistic by today's standards. The BBS I ran back then operated on a similar system (BASIC plus an assembly communications core) called Color 64, and some little games and tweaks were the first real independent programming I ever did. Thinking back, I'm struck by how simple the system was--I printed out the entire BASIC source code on a small stack of paper, to study it--compared to the codebase I'm working on now (500,000 lines of code spanning four programming languages and 15 years of development). The world of computing was so small back then, and it is now probably the single most important industry in the world, touching billions of people's lives daily, in both good and bad ways (mostly good). I carry multiple supercomputers with me almost everywhere I go; my phone dwarfs the power of the first dozen, or more, computers I owned. And, equally importantly, it is connected to the world via satellite and cell tower at speeds beyond imagining in 1980. The first modem I used was 300 baud, and I could read the words as they came down the line. Now I can download a 1080p movie in 30 minutes, and when Google Fiber arrives, the same download will be almost instant. All of this change has happened in my lifetime; heck, I was old enough to participate in BBS culture a few short years after these archives began. And I don't even feel that old. I've got a few grey hairs in my beard, but I'm not a grey beard, yet. Moore's law predicted (and maybe even drove) the increasing transistor count, but couldn't have predicted the vast difference in what computers would become and where they would reach. 12 year old me wouldn't have believed in the stuff we have today. It's not jet packs or personal space ships, but it's pretty neat. And, despite the general silliness that seems to pervade our industry lately (so many toy web apps consuming so much effort and brain power and investment), I suspect the general trend is accelerating rather than decelerating. We are constantly on the cusp of revolutionary change, and have been since most of us have been alive. It was suggested by some in the 19th (and 20th) century that invention had peaked and that it would only be a process of improvement from then on. I suspect people are still suggesting that, or thinking it. I even find myself in that mindset now and then, and I know better. I know I'm rambling here...but, the history in this archive is fascinating. I probably won't read more than a couple dozen more pages, as I feel vaguely like the best thing I can be doing is getting back to figuring out what the future is going to look like and figuring out how I can best be a part of it. I may not have as many years left ahead of me as I have behind me...it would be easy to let nostalgia win my mental bandwidth.
- sekasi 12y ago
  Great post. I think what you're referring to is Buckminster Fuller's 'Knowledge Doubling Curve'. I get a sense from your post that we're most likely roughly the same age and grew up in very similar circumstances. If you do get around to reading this comment, can I just ask; Do you feel a sense of marvel at where things have ended up, or disappointment? Thanks for a good read, as comments go.
  - SwellJoe 12y ago
    "Do you feel a sense of marvel at where things have ended up, or disappointment?" Both. But, mostly marvel. I'd certainly hoped we would have made more progress on health and life extension by now (I started reading about it when I was maybe 15), but the progress that has been made is also wonderful. Hell, we're on the verge of an effective vaccine for malaria. That alone would be a miracle that saves about a million lives each year. And, I'd hoped space exploration would have gotten further. We seem to have lost vision on that front. The space shuttle was a bad idea, and I think it cost a lot of momentum only now being re-gained. And, flying cars. Where are the flying cars? I guess electric cars are almost as good. Maybe better in terms of reducing the harm humans do the earth. Which brings me to the disastrous behavior of humanity toward the environment. I was much more optimistic about humanity's willingness and ability to stave off climate change. We have only accelerated the destruction in my lifetime. That's a serious disappointment. I also think I'm just now beginning to understand some things about the global economy that aren't so flattering to humanity. My lavish developed-nation lifestyle is built on the suffering of people in poorer nations. My computer, phone, shoes, appliances, clothes, etc. are all made by near-slave labor in horrific conditions. Even if I try to minimize my impact in that regard (and I do), it's impossible not to be part of a pretty horrific system. That's disappointing, and not something I knew to think about (because the access to information needed to begin to understand it wasn't within my reach back then).
    - digi_owl 12y ago
      I marvel at the pace of the technical (mainframe in pocket), and despair at the uses (masses and masses of vapid trivia).
azinman2 12y ago
Wow this is awesome. It takes me back to my own BBS days from when I was only 6 years old+! What's a shame is how much people in the beginning created to share with people -- it cost money to run these BBSes let alone call into others. The Internet as a whole was built similarly where protocols like email allowed a diversity of providers and people to talk regardless of implementation/account. Now I'm seeing a complete commercializations of all communication, from Facebook owning a giant chunk of social to now even with slack I see on product hunt some list of semi-public channels replicating what IRC has done for years. Attempts as decentralized social networks haven't gone anywhere because it's been protocol first, implementation & network effect later (not to mention all trying to clone fb or Twitter versus having a differentiated experience). Plus everyone in a mobile non-html world just wants to own the next big thing. We need more Mozillas out there doing things beyond the web to get communication out of the hands of individual companies and into the greater public. With blockchains, oauth, json, and cloud storage the tech is there to do interesting stuff. We need now someone that already has the network to step forward.
- amirmc 12y ago
  Commercialiation of communication is an interesting way of putting it. I agree that the attempts at decentralisation are so-so but I do think it's critical that the low-level pieces are done properly. Once they're deployed, every wart and bottleneck becomes magnified. It's easy to have a 'move fast and break things' mentality for a centralised service because there's an army of people with access to everything so they can peer in, monitor and fix breakages. Not quite the same for a decentralised system. Another way of thinking about the network side is that we already have many of them. Address books, emails, services etc all of which contain different subsets. If we can recreate the existing services with a resilient, decentralised alternatives then that can form the bedrock on which to build further things. FWIW, I'm working with others on an open source stack that can do this [1]. We're starting with the core services of mail, contacts and calendars (to replace iCloud), but the stack itself is very flexible and built using Mirage [2]. [1] http://nymote.org/blog/2013/introducing-nymote/ http://nymote.org/blog/2013/introducing-nymote/ [2] http://www.openmirage.org/wiki/overview-of-mirage http://www.openmirage.org/wiki/overview-of-mirage
- 12y ago
SwellJoe 12y ago
Now that I've had a chance to read more, I see that casual misogyny in the tech world is definitely not new. So far, I've seen a half dozen messages, and multiple people, calling someone named "Susan Thunder" a whore, bitch, etc. Example: Message number 7168 is 4 lines from John Billings To SUSAN THUNDER at 14:30:49 on 12-Mar-81. Subject: YOUR LAST MESSAE YOU LEFT ONE THING OUT OF YOUR DESCRIPTION OF YOURSELF, WHETHER YOU CHARGE BY THE HOUR OR THE EVENING? And, I have seen no polite messages directed toward anyone with a female sounding name. Given that 90+% of the messages are from people with male-sounding names, and every message, so far, that I've seen directed to a woman has been overtly hateful, it puts some things in perspective about why there are so few women in our industry today. I can't say that, as a 12 year old, I was treated with respect by the BBS community at large, but at least I wasn't on the receiving end of veiled rape threats. I'm hoping I stumbled on the few really hostile messages in the bunch. But, I've bounced around a bit...I fear further study will only be further disheartening.
- bobcostas55 12y ago
  If you read just 2 posts above the one you quoted, you'll see that "Susan" got someone from the board arrested.
  - SwellJoe 12y ago
    Did she get them arrested for paying her for sex? Edit: I just spent another ten minutes reading some of the various rants against Susan. I suspect David Starr is/was mentally ill. His obsession with her is creepy, and the accusations bizarre and practically incoherent. I don't know if Susan is a nice person, or a cop, or a fed, or whatever...but the stuff David Starr says is way out there. Also, I can't believe I have spent this much time at 5AM reading some stupid, probably mostly made up, BBS drama from 34 years ago. Edit #2: The message you refer to is this: Message number 7166 is 18 lines from Jude Saucier To SUSAN THUNDER at 14!07:35 on 12-Mar-81. Subject: SUSAN'S PRANKS MS THUNDER, I HAVE BEEN OFF OF THE SYSTEM FOR QUITE SOME TIME ANO JUST FOUND OUT WHAT HAPPENED TO PAUL MONT. I JUST WANT TO LET YOU KNOW THAT I AM QUITE SICK OF YOUR LITTLE PRANKS. lF YOU GET YOUR ROCKS OFF BY PICKING ON KIDS I SUGGEST YOU BUY A GOOD VIBRATOR INSTEAD. I'll GIVE YOU A CHALLANGE - IF YOU WANT TO PICK ON SOME ONE - LET IT BE ME. WHEN YOU DC THOUGH - LET ME WARN YOU - YOU ~Ill NEVER MESS ~ITH ANYONE PGAIN. JUST BECAUSE YOU GO TO THE EXTENTS THAT YOU DO TO GET PEOPLE IN TROUBLE FOR THINGS THAT YOU ARE GUILTY OF YOURSELF DOESN'T ~EAN THAT YOU CAN GET EVERBOOY. I HAVE SOME SURPRISES IN STORE FOR YOU WHEN YOU START TO TRY DOING DAMAGE TO ME. BY THE TIME I AM THROUGH YOU WON'T EVEN HAVE A TERMINAL TO USE THESE SYSTEMS. THAt•s ENOUGH FOR NOW BUT DON•T FORGET - I'LL BE WATCHING YCU AND I WILL <NOT MAYBE> GET YOU SOON. CONSIDER YOURSELF ~ARNED! !!! SEE YOU SOON JUDE. P.S. PAUL HAD BETTER BE OUT OF THIS MESS SOON - UNDERSTOOD?? I can't make much sense out of that. But, it's also full of misogyny and threats of violence. That's pretty fucked up.
vermontdevil 12y ago
You can watch the documentary about BBS http://www.bbsdocumentary.com http://www.bbsdocumentary.com The documentary really brought back a lot of great memories about how one dials in, some of the software used, what one does online, etc. Plus the producers went out their way to make sure the set was captioned after I asked. (I heard of this documentary prior to its release so I got lucky)
darklajid 12y ago
Working for an OCR company. Dot Matrix is a pain.. That said, would it make sense to give it a try here? Would need to separate the pages/create a TIF file, but I could send this through a good number of engines, I assume. I cannot promise some miracles, but.. worth a try, perhaps.
- Gracana 12y ago
  I would have thought dot matrix would be easy. Few characters and fixed spacing and all...
- Silent700 12y ago
  I attempted OCR with Acrobat, which you can inspect by downloading the PDF. Then archive.org does their own OCR (I believe with ABBY?) which is what you'll see if you look at their .txt version. I haven't had a chance to compare them yet. I wouldn't expect much from OCRing dot matrix, though I'd be happy for others with access to other engines to give it a try. Someday I'd like to get all the messages into a browsable form on a website. Hell, we can crowd-source transcription if we have to.
nl 12y ago
Randomly flipping though, message 7811 is to John Gilmore[1] thanking him for the pointer to this new thing called public-key encryption. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Gilmore_(activist) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Gilmore_(activist)
toddkaufmann 12y ago
Cool. I think I first posted here in 1979, found a lot of useful phreak info. I don't see any of my posts, but do see my name (pseudo) mentioned by others a couple times.
- Silent700 12y ago
  You're the 8BBS first user to speak up. Any stories?

90 points by salgernon 12y ago

The link to the pdf on archive.org: https://archive.org/details/8BBSArchiveP1V1 https://archive.org/details/8BBSArchiveP1V1 But I like the narrative in the original link.

SwellJoe 12y ago

After reading a couple of pages of this, I had one of those moments where I feel sort of like the earth is shifting beneath me, and everything feels unreal for a moment. It struck me (hard) that in my lifetime, I have watched technology go from these printouts, to what we have today. I used my first BBS in around 1986, and it hadn't yet evolved terribly far from where it was when these archives were produced. It's both amazing and terrible (in the "extreme in extent or degree; intense" sense) to think about. In 1980, that was a pretty impressive piece of machinery, but it was not even in the same league as a smart watch today. But, raw numbers (32k, 1.5MB disks) don't begin to express how different the world we live in today is. At the time this BBS was almost unique. A few thousand people in the entire world used an online messaging system like this. Today about 3 billion people are online somehow, and the majority of people under 30 in the developed world use some sort of online messaging every day. Long distance telephone calls were expensive enough that few people made them more than occasionally. International communication was an extreme rarity except for the richest and most powerful. (And, 12 year old me had to break the law to communicate across the country, using stolen calling cards to call BBSes in other states.) The 8BBS software, unique and impressive for its time, was positively simplistic by today's standards. The BBS I ran back then operated on a similar system (BASIC plus an assembly communications core) called Color 64, and some little games and tweaks were the first real independent programming I ever did. Thinking back, I'm struck by how simple the system was--I printed out the entire BASIC source code on a small stack of paper, to study it--compared to the codebase I'm working on now (500,000 lines of code spanning four programming languages and 15 years of development). The world of computing was so small back then, and it is now probably the single most important industry in the world, touching billions of people's lives daily, in both good and bad ways (mostly good). I carry multiple supercomputers with me almost everywhere I go; my phone dwarfs the power of the first dozen, or more, computers I owned. And, equally importantly, it is connected to the world via satellite and cell tower at speeds beyond imagining in 1980. The first modem I used was 300 baud, and I could read the words as they came down the line. Now I can download a 1080p movie in 30 minutes, and when Google Fiber arrives, the same download will be almost instant. All of this change has happened in my lifetime; heck, I was old enough to participate in BBS culture a few short years after these archives began. And I don't even feel that old. I've got a few grey hairs in my beard, but I'm not a grey beard, yet. Moore's law predicted (and maybe even drove) the increasing transistor count, but couldn't have predicted the vast difference in what computers would become and where they would reach. 12 year old me wouldn't have believed in the stuff we have today. It's not jet packs or personal space ships, but it's pretty neat. And, despite the general silliness that seems to pervade our industry lately (so many toy web apps consuming so much effort and brain power and investment), I suspect the general trend is accelerating rather than decelerating. We are constantly on the cusp of revolutionary change, and have been since most of us have been alive. It was suggested by some in the 19th (and 20th) century that invention had peaked and that it would only be a process of improvement from then on. I suspect people are still suggesting that, or thinking it. I even find myself in that mindset now and then, and I know better. I know I'm rambling here...but, the history in this archive is fascinating. I probably won't read more than a couple dozen more pages, as I feel vaguely like the best thing I can be doing is getting back to figuring out what the future is going to look like and figuring out how I can best be a part of it. I may not have as many years left ahead of me as I have behind me...it would be easy to let nostalgia win my mental bandwidth.

sekasi 12y ago
Great post. I think what you're referring to is Buckminster Fuller's 'Knowledge Doubling Curve'. I get a sense from your post that we're most likely roughly the same age and grew up in very similar circumstances. If you do get around to reading this comment, can I just ask; Do you feel a sense of marvel at where things have ended up, or disappointment? Thanks for a good read, as comments go.
- SwellJoe 12y ago
  "Do you feel a sense of marvel at where things have ended up, or disappointment?" Both. But, mostly marvel. I'd certainly hoped we would have made more progress on health and life extension by now (I started reading about it when I was maybe 15), but the progress that has been made is also wonderful. Hell, we're on the verge of an effective vaccine for malaria. That alone would be a miracle that saves about a million lives each year. And, I'd hoped space exploration would have gotten further. We seem to have lost vision on that front. The space shuttle was a bad idea, and I think it cost a lot of momentum only now being re-gained. And, flying cars. Where are the flying cars? I guess electric cars are almost as good. Maybe better in terms of reducing the harm humans do the earth. Which brings me to the disastrous behavior of humanity toward the environment. I was much more optimistic about humanity's willingness and ability to stave off climate change. We have only accelerated the destruction in my lifetime. That's a serious disappointment. I also think I'm just now beginning to understand some things about the global economy that aren't so flattering to humanity. My lavish developed-nation lifestyle is built on the suffering of people in poorer nations. My computer, phone, shoes, appliances, clothes, etc. are all made by near-slave labor in horrific conditions. Even if I try to minimize my impact in that regard (and I do), it's impossible not to be part of a pretty horrific system. That's disappointing, and not something I knew to think about (because the access to information needed to begin to understand it wasn't within my reach back then).
  - digi_owl 12y ago
    I marvel at the pace of the technical (mainframe in pocket), and despair at the uses (masses and masses of vapid trivia).

azinman2 12y ago

Wow this is awesome. It takes me back to my own BBS days from when I was only 6 years old+! What's a shame is how much people in the beginning created to share with people -- it cost money to run these BBSes let alone call into others. The Internet as a whole was built similarly where protocols like email allowed a diversity of providers and people to talk regardless of implementation/account. Now I'm seeing a complete commercializations of all communication, from Facebook owning a giant chunk of social to now even with slack I see on product hunt some list of semi-public channels replicating what IRC has done for years. Attempts as decentralized social networks haven't gone anywhere because it's been protocol first, implementation & network effect later (not to mention all trying to clone fb or Twitter versus having a differentiated experience). Plus everyone in a mobile non-html world just wants to own the next big thing. We need more Mozillas out there doing things beyond the web to get communication out of the hands of individual companies and into the greater public. With blockchains, oauth, json, and cloud storage the tech is there to do interesting stuff. We need now someone that already has the network to step forward.

amirmc 12y ago
Commercialiation of communication is an interesting way of putting it. I agree that the attempts at decentralisation are so-so but I do think it's critical that the low-level pieces are done properly. Once they're deployed, every wart and bottleneck becomes magnified. It's easy to have a 'move fast and break things' mentality for a centralised service because there's an army of people with access to everything so they can peer in, monitor and fix breakages. Not quite the same for a decentralised system. Another way of thinking about the network side is that we already have many of them. Address books, emails, services etc all of which contain different subsets. If we can recreate the existing services with a resilient, decentralised alternatives then that can form the bedrock on which to build further things. FWIW, I'm working with others on an open source stack that can do this [1]. We're starting with the core services of mail, contacts and calendars (to replace iCloud), but the stack itself is very flexible and built using Mirage [2]. [1] http://nymote.org/blog/2013/introducing-nymote/ http://nymote.org/blog/2013/introducing-nymote/ [2] http://www.openmirage.org/wiki/overview-of-mirage http://www.openmirage.org/wiki/overview-of-mirage
12y ago

SwellJoe 12y ago

Now that I've had a chance to read more, I see that casual misogyny in the tech world is definitely not new. So far, I've seen a half dozen messages, and multiple people, calling someone named "Susan Thunder" a whore, bitch, etc. Example: Message number 7168 is 4 lines from John Billings To SUSAN THUNDER at 14:30:49 on 12-Mar-81. Subject: YOUR LAST MESSAE YOU LEFT ONE THING OUT OF YOUR DESCRIPTION OF YOURSELF, WHETHER YOU CHARGE BY THE HOUR OR THE EVENING? And, I have seen no polite messages directed toward anyone with a female sounding name. Given that 90+% of the messages are from people with male-sounding names, and every message, so far, that I've seen directed to a woman has been overtly hateful, it puts some things in perspective about why there are so few women in our industry today. I can't say that, as a 12 year old, I was treated with respect by the BBS community at large, but at least I wasn't on the receiving end of veiled rape threats. I'm hoping I stumbled on the few really hostile messages in the bunch. But, I've bounced around a bit...I fear further study will only be further disheartening.

bobcostas55 12y ago
If you read just 2 posts above the one you quoted, you'll see that "Susan" got someone from the board arrested.
- SwellJoe 12y ago
  Did she get them arrested for paying her for sex? Edit: I just spent another ten minutes reading some of the various rants against Susan. I suspect David Starr is/was mentally ill. His obsession with her is creepy, and the accusations bizarre and practically incoherent. I don't know if Susan is a nice person, or a cop, or a fed, or whatever...but the stuff David Starr says is way out there. Also, I can't believe I have spent this much time at 5AM reading some stupid, probably mostly made up, BBS drama from 34 years ago. Edit #2: The message you refer to is this: Message number 7166 is 18 lines from Jude Saucier To SUSAN THUNDER at 14!07:35 on 12-Mar-81. Subject: SUSAN'S PRANKS MS THUNDER, I HAVE BEEN OFF OF THE SYSTEM FOR QUITE SOME TIME ANO JUST FOUND OUT WHAT HAPPENED TO PAUL MONT. I JUST WANT TO LET YOU KNOW THAT I AM QUITE SICK OF YOUR LITTLE PRANKS. lF YOU GET YOUR ROCKS OFF BY PICKING ON KIDS I SUGGEST YOU BUY A GOOD VIBRATOR INSTEAD. I'll GIVE YOU A CHALLANGE - IF YOU WANT TO PICK ON SOME ONE - LET IT BE ME. WHEN YOU DC THOUGH - LET ME WARN YOU - YOU ~Ill NEVER MESS ~ITH ANYONE PGAIN. JUST BECAUSE YOU GO TO THE EXTENTS THAT YOU DO TO GET PEOPLE IN TROUBLE FOR THINGS THAT YOU ARE GUILTY OF YOURSELF DOESN'T ~EAN THAT YOU CAN GET EVERBOOY. I HAVE SOME SURPRISES IN STORE FOR YOU WHEN YOU START TO TRY DOING DAMAGE TO ME. BY THE TIME I AM THROUGH YOU WON'T EVEN HAVE A TERMINAL TO USE THESE SYSTEMS. THAt•s ENOUGH FOR NOW BUT DON•T FORGET - I'LL BE WATCHING YCU AND I WILL <NOT MAYBE> GET YOU SOON. CONSIDER YOURSELF ~ARNED! !!! SEE YOU SOON JUDE. P.S. PAUL HAD BETTER BE OUT OF THIS MESS SOON - UNDERSTOOD?? I can't make much sense out of that. But, it's also full of misogyny and threats of violence. That's pretty fucked up.

vermontdevil 12y ago

You can watch the documentary about BBS http://www.bbsdocumentary.com http://www.bbsdocumentary.com The documentary really brought back a lot of great memories about how one dials in, some of the software used, what one does online, etc. Plus the producers went out their way to make sure the set was captioned after I asked. (I heard of this documentary prior to its release so I got lucky)

darklajid 12y ago

Working for an OCR company. Dot Matrix is a pain.. That said, would it make sense to give it a try here? Would need to separate the pages/create a TIF file, but I could send this through a good number of engines, I assume. I cannot promise some miracles, but.. worth a try, perhaps.

Gracana 12y ago
I would have thought dot matrix would be easy. Few characters and fixed spacing and all...
Silent700 12y ago
I attempted OCR with Acrobat, which you can inspect by downloading the PDF. Then archive.org does their own OCR (I believe with ABBY?) which is what you'll see if you look at their .txt version. I haven't had a chance to compare them yet. I wouldn't expect much from OCRing dot matrix, though I'd be happy for others with access to other engines to give it a try. Someday I'd like to get all the messages into a browsable form on a website. Hell, we can crowd-source transcription if we have to.

nl 12y ago

Randomly flipping though, message 7811 is to John Gilmore[1] thanking him for the pointer to this new thing called public-key encryption. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Gilmore_(activist) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Gilmore_(activist)

toddkaufmann 12y ago

Cool. I think I first posted here in 1979, found a lot of useful phreak info. I don't see any of my posts, but do see my name (pseudo) mentioned by others a couple times.

Silent700 12y ago
You're the 8BBS first user to speak up. Any stories?