5 ms·

Uber slapped with suit by Philadelphia taxi companies

24 points by larrys 12y ago

colinbartlett 12y ago
Edit: Nevermind. I was confused when the article said, "Pennsylvania's Public Utility Commission recently allowed UberX to operate in the state, but not Philadelphia." I took that to mean they were not operating UberX in Philadelphia. But maybe it means they are? Illegally?
- tedunangst 12y ago
  ? Isn't the lawsuit about UberX? > Checker and the plaintiffs group contend the UberX drivers are operating an illegal enterprise
- thenmar 12y ago
  There is UberX in Philly now, although as far as I know there were no regulatory changes (and Black still operates legally). The PPA actually did a handful of "sting" operations against UberX drivers when the service started, calling an Uber and then impounding the vehicle (http://www.phillymag.com/news/2014/10/26/uber-philadelphia-uberx-ppa-sting-impounds/ http://www.phillymag.com/news/2014/10/26/uber-philadelphia-u...).
  - duaneb 12y ago
    As far as I am aware (I use uber quite a bit), Uber X is only available in the suburbs. In the city, it's not available; I've only ever gotten the Uber black sedans. EDIT: This is no longer true, apparently my statement about using uber quite a bit is also no longer true.
    - thenmar 12y ago
      UberX recently became available: https://www.uber.com/cities/philadelphia https://www.uber.com/cities/philadelphia I've taken several in center city! (unsurprisingly, a much better experience than CC cabs...)
FallFastForFun 12y ago
goes to show that the only ones upset by Uber are those in competition with them
- saosebastiao 12y ago
  I'm pretty sure there are a lot of people upset with them. I use uber pretty regularly, and there is no way in hell I agree with the government sponsored monopoly that taxis enjoy, but I don't like them. They're a shady company with shady legal practices.
  - Igglyboo 12y ago
    Use Lyft?
    - saosebastiao 12y ago
      In Seattle, there are probably 50 uberx drivers for every lyft driver. I don't know why they haven't caught on more, but they aren't much of an option.
meesterdude 12y ago
I recently took a cab home in philly, and throughout the ride home the cab driver was telling me about uber and the impact its had on him. He works 2 shifts and makes $70 but the cab itself is $80/day. He used to own a gas station and other real estate but the economy screwed him and he resorted to driving a cab to try and support his kids, which he was barely able to do. equally, there was a time I had to take my cat to the vet and could not get a cab home. I called every company I could find, tried the apps for the ones that required it, but nothing. One of the people that worked at the clinic drove me about 2 blocks and there was a cab of one of the companies I had tried, sitting in the parking lot of a gas station. That was frustrating. So I think its unfair what cab drivers are going through. I think Uber and other services bring innovation to the market and consumers have expressed an interest in this. While its true advances in technology often leave a given workforce obsolete, this is more subtle and "technical" in a legal sense; and not nearly as dramatic as self-driving cars will be. I think philly should give these cab companies a break, or tighten their grip on Uber. Both should be allowed to compete, and do so fairly. Its not in the consumers interests for one or the other to go away. Also, I think the "uber is just an app" is BS, because they're setting the rates and getting a commission from the ride (someone correct me if I'm wrong on this) so in reality they're operating an automated dispatch service. But I think their entire business model revolves around that talking point, and doubt they would be able to compete with taxi's if forced to play by those rules.
- themartorana 12y ago
  The problem is that any real change for cab companies requires the PPA (or your local city's authority) to admit that medallions are incredibly overvalued, artificially inflated, and archaic. I don't know if you know the Philly PPA, but it's more likely to rain gold nuggets. The PPA (and other medallion authorities) will never admit they're way is antiquated or wrong (or damn near criminal) and will do whatever they can to sustain authority, the status quo, and monopoly. The only way to shudder "disrupt" old, dirty cabs with poverty-wage drivers is to show complete disregard for bad laws and those desperate to hold on to power no matter how bad it is for the population at large - or even the drivers they say they protect.
  - 12y ago
Punoxysm 12y ago
I use and enjoy the services that uber offers. That said, it uses dubious loopholes to evade the (misguided, anti-competitive) regulations taxi companies operate under. Letting uber evade the bad regulations instead of fixing them is a poor solution (same with tesla and dealerships).
- m_mueller 12y ago
  Whenever a market gets too distorted or even shut down, shady things (either illegal or in legal gray areas) start popping up that allow people to evade the distorted market. Alcohol prohibition, printer cartridges, keurig and nespresso capsules, taxis, even the war on drugs, you can all boil it down to this simple principle. At the end this is how change happens when at some point the attempts to crack down on it are either given up or it leads to such a severe police state that at some point a revolution happens. So I'd say don't blame the player, blame the game - but still hold up the player to the moral standards you'd like to see yourself (e.g. try to give your money to a better organization than Uber). When it comes down to these things I like to go back to Immanuel Kant: "Act only according to that maxim whereby you can at the same time will that it should become a universal law without contradiction.". I care much more about this than about the law, especially laws that clearly don't have an actual democratic process at their basis. Laws that come into place because of lobbies pressuring or influencing politicians through money or other means, where there is no real possibility for the people to overturn it, are in my opinion not morally just. Unfortunately this means that there are almost no laws I find just, other than those in my home country, Switzerland.
  - Pyxl101 12y ago
    Well said. I find it absurd how much local governments interfere with local markets, like with taxis. I see no good reason (that will survive scrutiny with Kant's Categorical Imperative) to legislate the number of taxis in a certain area, like with medallions, or charge a high price for them. It's effectively corruption and regulatory capture. It's anti-competitive and has, by my analysis, no redeeming qualities that could not be accomplished better another way. I don't see a reasonable avenue for a company like Uber to change the laws ahead of time. They only have the traction and resources that they do because of their bias for action. A no-name startup petitioning the city to drop their taxi legislation because the model is "wrong" will get nowhere. I don't see how Uber could ever have come about with that approach. Additionally, I am also not convinced that Uber's model falls under taxi legislation by writing or intent. I do not believe that taxi legislation is attempting to control for the same problems. Taxis pick up random people on the streets, with effectively zero relationship ahead of time, and lots of opportunity for individual consumer ripoff. People who use Uber have established a relationship with the company ahead of time, before they need a ride. They have chosen to use Uber specifically. The same choice and discrimination is not part of hailing a cab on the street. Uber offers a consistent price to people in an area, and its well-known brand has a reputation to which people can associate bad or good experiences: for the company as a whole, through their speech, and for specific drivers, with the ratings system. That said, I do also have concerns about Uber's attitude and their intimidating and disruptive tactics toward the press, competitors, etc. They have not comported themselves well enough to deserve the moral high ground, though I will tend to side with them anyway on these legislative issues because taxis are so dysfunctional.
duaneb 12y ago
It's a little unfair. Uber drivers get screwed over by wages, but taxis are a miserable affair. Every company has their own hailing app; even though drivers are required by law to offer credit card charges, I've been forced multiple times to get cash out of a machine because the machine doesn't work. One time it was even blatantly unplugged. Both sides are fucked, in their own way; the taxi companies will need to come together and figure out something aside from a lawsuit to survive uber (and uber's successors).
- jobposter1234 12y ago
  I have been told by multiple cabbies in different cities that most personal revenue ("salary") they make is eliminated by absurd cc processing fees. A recent driver in a SoCal city told me that his processing rates were 20-30%, and he was only allowed to use that service by the terms of his cab lease from the medallion owner. (They obviously operated the cc processing service as well.) Shouldn't blunt your frustration, but I wanted to repeat what I've heard from traditional taxi drivers -- they're sometimes better off not driving you than driving you and collecting payment by cc.
  - dustingetz 12y ago
    I would like a source please
    - jobposter1234 12y ago
      Sorry, don't have one. Wasn't trying to convince you of my perspective, or change your mind. If you're genuinely curious, I'd encourage you to talk with the next few taxi drivers you interact with, and ask them about it.
    - duaneb 12y ago
      I can vouch for this; it's a common gripe. Talk to your driver about it the next time you taxi.
  - duaneb 12y ago
    I'm well aware of this, and I attempt to tip to offset this. That's no excuse for basically refusing to accept how I want to pay. I don't take short taxi rides, so if I'm traveling in the city I always pay at least $20.
91pavan 12y ago
Seems like Uber cannot catch a break!
tach4n 12y ago
As a Philly native whenever I head up to NYC one of the things that always strikes me is how much better the cab experience is - which should tell you something. The setup we have now is just bad all around. It's not good for the drivers, and it's not good for the passenger. One of the last times I took a cab here, the driver spent the whole time on the phone talking to another driver about how to cheat at inspections, disable the CC machine, etc.

24 points by larrys 12y ago

Edit: Nevermind. I was confused when the article said, "Pennsylvania's Public Utility Commission recently allowed UberX to operate in the state, but not Philadelphia." I took that to mean they were not operating UberX in Philadelphia. But maybe it means they are? Illegally?

tedunangst 12y ago
? Isn't the lawsuit about UberX? > Checker and the plaintiffs group contend the UberX drivers are operating an illegal enterprise
thenmar 12y ago
There is UberX in Philly now, although as far as I know there were no regulatory changes (and Black still operates legally). The PPA actually did a handful of "sting" operations against UberX drivers when the service started, calling an Uber and then impounding the vehicle (http://www.phillymag.com/news/2014/10/26/uber-philadelphia-uberx-ppa-sting-impounds/ http://www.phillymag.com/news/2014/10/26/uber-philadelphia-u...).
- duaneb 12y ago
  As far as I am aware (I use uber quite a bit), Uber X is only available in the suburbs. In the city, it's not available; I've only ever gotten the Uber black sedans. EDIT: This is no longer true, apparently my statement about using uber quite a bit is also no longer true.
  - thenmar 12y ago
    UberX recently became available: https://www.uber.com/cities/philadelphia https://www.uber.com/cities/philadelphia I've taken several in center city! (unsurprisingly, a much better experience than CC cabs...)

FallFastForFun 12y ago

goes to show that the only ones upset by Uber are those in competition with them

saosebastiao 12y ago
I'm pretty sure there are a lot of people upset with them. I use uber pretty regularly, and there is no way in hell I agree with the government sponsored monopoly that taxis enjoy, but I don't like them. They're a shady company with shady legal practices.
- Igglyboo 12y ago
  Use Lyft?
  - saosebastiao 12y ago
    In Seattle, there are probably 50 uberx drivers for every lyft driver. I don't know why they haven't caught on more, but they aren't much of an option.

meesterdude 12y ago

I recently took a cab home in philly, and throughout the ride home the cab driver was telling me about uber and the impact its had on him. He works 2 shifts and makes $70 but the cab itself is $80/day. He used to own a gas station and other real estate but the economy screwed him and he resorted to driving a cab to try and support his kids, which he was barely able to do. equally, there was a time I had to take my cat to the vet and could not get a cab home. I called every company I could find, tried the apps for the ones that required it, but nothing. One of the people that worked at the clinic drove me about 2 blocks and there was a cab of one of the companies I had tried, sitting in the parking lot of a gas station. That was frustrating. So I think its unfair what cab drivers are going through. I think Uber and other services bring innovation to the market and consumers have expressed an interest in this. While its true advances in technology often leave a given workforce obsolete, this is more subtle and "technical" in a legal sense; and not nearly as dramatic as self-driving cars will be. I think philly should give these cab companies a break, or tighten their grip on Uber. Both should be allowed to compete, and do so fairly. Its not in the consumers interests for one or the other to go away. Also, I think the "uber is just an app" is BS, because they're setting the rates and getting a commission from the ride (someone correct me if I'm wrong on this) so in reality they're operating an automated dispatch service. But I think their entire business model revolves around that talking point, and doubt they would be able to compete with taxi's if forced to play by those rules.

themartorana 12y ago
The problem is that any real change for cab companies requires the PPA (or your local city's authority) to admit that medallions are incredibly overvalued, artificially inflated, and archaic. I don't know if you know the Philly PPA, but it's more likely to rain gold nuggets. The PPA (and other medallion authorities) will never admit they're way is antiquated or wrong (or damn near criminal) and will do whatever they can to sustain authority, the status quo, and monopoly. The only way to shudder "disrupt" old, dirty cabs with poverty-wage drivers is to show complete disregard for bad laws and those desperate to hold on to power no matter how bad it is for the population at large - or even the drivers they say they protect.
- 12y ago

Punoxysm 12y ago

I use and enjoy the services that uber offers. That said, it uses dubious loopholes to evade the (misguided, anti-competitive) regulations taxi companies operate under. Letting uber evade the bad regulations instead of fixing them is a poor solution (same with tesla and dealerships).

m_mueller 12y ago
Whenever a market gets too distorted or even shut down, shady things (either illegal or in legal gray areas) start popping up that allow people to evade the distorted market. Alcohol prohibition, printer cartridges, keurig and nespresso capsules, taxis, even the war on drugs, you can all boil it down to this simple principle. At the end this is how change happens when at some point the attempts to crack down on it are either given up or it leads to such a severe police state that at some point a revolution happens. So I'd say don't blame the player, blame the game - but still hold up the player to the moral standards you'd like to see yourself (e.g. try to give your money to a better organization than Uber). When it comes down to these things I like to go back to Immanuel Kant: "Act only according to that maxim whereby you can at the same time will that it should become a universal law without contradiction.". I care much more about this than about the law, especially laws that clearly don't have an actual democratic process at their basis. Laws that come into place because of lobbies pressuring or influencing politicians through money or other means, where there is no real possibility for the people to overturn it, are in my opinion not morally just. Unfortunately this means that there are almost no laws I find just, other than those in my home country, Switzerland.
- Pyxl101 12y ago
  Well said. I find it absurd how much local governments interfere with local markets, like with taxis. I see no good reason (that will survive scrutiny with Kant's Categorical Imperative) to legislate the number of taxis in a certain area, like with medallions, or charge a high price for them. It's effectively corruption and regulatory capture. It's anti-competitive and has, by my analysis, no redeeming qualities that could not be accomplished better another way. I don't see a reasonable avenue for a company like Uber to change the laws ahead of time. They only have the traction and resources that they do because of their bias for action. A no-name startup petitioning the city to drop their taxi legislation because the model is "wrong" will get nowhere. I don't see how Uber could ever have come about with that approach. Additionally, I am also not convinced that Uber's model falls under taxi legislation by writing or intent. I do not believe that taxi legislation is attempting to control for the same problems. Taxis pick up random people on the streets, with effectively zero relationship ahead of time, and lots of opportunity for individual consumer ripoff. People who use Uber have established a relationship with the company ahead of time, before they need a ride. They have chosen to use Uber specifically. The same choice and discrimination is not part of hailing a cab on the street. Uber offers a consistent price to people in an area, and its well-known brand has a reputation to which people can associate bad or good experiences: for the company as a whole, through their speech, and for specific drivers, with the ratings system. That said, I do also have concerns about Uber's attitude and their intimidating and disruptive tactics toward the press, competitors, etc. They have not comported themselves well enough to deserve the moral high ground, though I will tend to side with them anyway on these legislative issues because taxis are so dysfunctional.

duaneb 12y ago

It's a little unfair. Uber drivers get screwed over by wages, but taxis are a miserable affair. Every company has their own hailing app; even though drivers are required by law to offer credit card charges, I've been forced multiple times to get cash out of a machine because the machine doesn't work. One time it was even blatantly unplugged. Both sides are fucked, in their own way; the taxi companies will need to come together and figure out something aside from a lawsuit to survive uber (and uber's successors).

jobposter1234 12y ago
I have been told by multiple cabbies in different cities that most personal revenue ("salary") they make is eliminated by absurd cc processing fees. A recent driver in a SoCal city told me that his processing rates were 20-30%, and he was only allowed to use that service by the terms of his cab lease from the medallion owner. (They obviously operated the cc processing service as well.) Shouldn't blunt your frustration, but I wanted to repeat what I've heard from traditional taxi drivers -- they're sometimes better off not driving you than driving you and collecting payment by cc.
- dustingetz 12y ago
  I would like a source please
  - jobposter1234 12y ago
    Sorry, don't have one. Wasn't trying to convince you of my perspective, or change your mind. If you're genuinely curious, I'd encourage you to talk with the next few taxi drivers you interact with, and ask them about it.
  - duaneb 12y ago
    I can vouch for this; it's a common gripe. Talk to your driver about it the next time you taxi.
- duaneb 12y ago
  I'm well aware of this, and I attempt to tip to offset this. That's no excuse for basically refusing to accept how I want to pay. I don't take short taxi rides, so if I'm traveling in the city I always pay at least $20.

91pavan 12y ago

Seems like Uber cannot catch a break!

tach4n 12y ago

As a Philly native whenever I head up to NYC one of the things that always strikes me is how much better the cab experience is - which should tell you something. The setup we have now is just bad all around. It's not good for the drivers, and it's not good for the passenger. One of the last times I took a cab here, the driver spent the whole time on the phone talking to another driver about how to cheat at inspections, disable the CC machine, etc.