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> You can read the Mincome reports yourself. I have. And the Namibian ones. And the Indian ones. None of them saw a significant dropoff in labour. > For examp

by phaemon 12y ago

> You can read the Mincome reports yourself. I have. And the Namibian ones. And the Indian ones. None of them saw a significant dropoff in labour. > For example, resource rich locations that produce wealth at multiples of the labor input. You can study the economics of these places yourself and look at the outcomes. But they basically sum to: people stop working, people collect their money, labor supply needs to be imported from outside the local economy Like Norway, you mean? > If you want evidence, I suggest you open a high-school level history book and start on page 1. How will a history book help me if "BI and UBI has never been tried anywhere in a fully form"? > And they need to present the outcome of this experiment as a real economic model that accurately predicts labor participation and real-world situations. These were "real-world" situations. They actually occurred in the real world. That's generally considered more "real-world" than economic models are. I think I'll stop here. I'm starting to get too amused with this conversation. Have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!

dllthomas 12y ago
When you say "Indian ones" do you mean the experiments with distributing casino revenues unconditionally amongst a Native American tribe, or something that happened in India that I missed. Not trying to nitpick labels, just want to be clear as to the referents.
- phaemon 12y ago
  I meant in the country India. I didn't even think about the Native American situation, though now I consider it, it does seem to illustrate the dangers of making payments that are socially exclusive (similar to the problems Australia has faced with its aboriginal people). I think the following links has more details on India, but I've not read through it as it's late on Christmas Eve for me and I'm worried about collapsing the Santa wave-function so I won't get any presents! http://isa-global-dialogue.net/indias-great-experiment-the-transformative-potential-of-basic-income-grants/ http://isa-global-dialogue.net/indias-great-experiment-the-t...
  - dllthomas 12y ago
    The Native American case I was thinking of seems to be this one: http://www.demos.org/blog/1/19/14/cherokee-tribes-basic-income-success-story http://www.demos.org/blog/1/19/14/cherokee-tribes-basic-inco... "Children who were moved out of poverty by the UBI saw their behavioral problems decline by 40 percent. Minor crimes declined. On-time high school graduation rates increased. Children who started receiving the UBI earlier in life had better mental health in early adulthood than those who started receiving it later in life. In particular, they were 33% less likely to develop substance abuse or psychiatric problems."
- phaemon 12y ago
  I don't seem able to reply to your last comment. Sorry I haven't done very well with your comments; it's not been through deliberate ignorance, just lack of time. I hadn't been previously aware of UBI in Native American tribes and had thought you were referring to social problems and welfare. I will have a read over the link you provided when I have more time. Thanks for letting me know about it.
  - dllthomas 12y ago
    "I don't seem able to reply to your last comment." There's a delay before you can reply, and I think it might grow with depth... "Sorry I haven't done very well with your comments; it's not been through deliberate ignorance, just lack of time." No worries. "I hadn't been previously aware of UBI in Native American tribes and had thought you were referring to social problems and welfare." Gotcha. "I will have a read over the link you provided when I have more time. Thanks for letting me know about it." Of course! And I fully understand you having better things to do right now - Merry Christmas :)
bane 12y ago
The Mincome studies don't show a labor dropoff, and that's because Mincome was not a BI program. If you didn't work and tried to live off of Mincome, you'd live at about 1/2 poverty level income. Basically you'd starve or freeze to death. What Mincome did show was negligible effects in almost all other areas, it neither showed significant increases or decreases in almost any measurable area. The reason Mincome was dropped as a program was that it was expensive and virtually worthless. It wasn't worth doing because it doesn't provide any positive benefits. Please please please, if you do anything, don't cherry pick favorable studies and read all of them with critical thinking. Read the unfavorable ones and read the favorable ones and figure out what they aren't saying. Have a great Christmas and New Year as well!
- dllthomas 12y ago
  The Wikipedia article seems to disagree with you: "Mothers spent more time rearing newborns, and the educational impacts are regarded as a success. Students in these families showed higher test scores and lower dropout rates. There was also an increase in adults continuing education." If you know better, please fix the article.
  - bane 12y ago
    I'm not going to fight with WP. Read the reports yourself and look at the statistical differences plus or minus. It's mostly irrelevant since Mincome is not the model any present xBI scheme is working off of.

by phaemon 12y ago

dllthomas 12y ago

When you say "Indian ones" do you mean the experiments with distributing casino revenues unconditionally amongst a Native American tribe, or something that happened in India that I missed. Not trying to nitpick labels, just want to be clear as to the referents.

phaemon 12y ago
I meant in the country India. I didn't even think about the Native American situation, though now I consider it, it does seem to illustrate the dangers of making payments that are socially exclusive (similar to the problems Australia has faced with its aboriginal people). I think the following links has more details on India, but I've not read through it as it's late on Christmas Eve for me and I'm worried about collapsing the Santa wave-function so I won't get any presents! http://isa-global-dialogue.net/indias-great-experiment-the-transformative-potential-of-basic-income-grants/ http://isa-global-dialogue.net/indias-great-experiment-the-t...
- dllthomas 12y ago
  The Native American case I was thinking of seems to be this one: http://www.demos.org/blog/1/19/14/cherokee-tribes-basic-income-success-story http://www.demos.org/blog/1/19/14/cherokee-tribes-basic-inco... "Children who were moved out of poverty by the UBI saw their behavioral problems decline by 40 percent. Minor crimes declined. On-time high school graduation rates increased. Children who started receiving the UBI earlier in life had better mental health in early adulthood than those who started receiving it later in life. In particular, they were 33% less likely to develop substance abuse or psychiatric problems."
phaemon 12y ago
I don't seem able to reply to your last comment. Sorry I haven't done very well with your comments; it's not been through deliberate ignorance, just lack of time. I hadn't been previously aware of UBI in Native American tribes and had thought you were referring to social problems and welfare. I will have a read over the link you provided when I have more time. Thanks for letting me know about it.
- dllthomas 12y ago
  "I don't seem able to reply to your last comment." There's a delay before you can reply, and I think it might grow with depth... "Sorry I haven't done very well with your comments; it's not been through deliberate ignorance, just lack of time." No worries. "I hadn't been previously aware of UBI in Native American tribes and had thought you were referring to social problems and welfare." Gotcha. "I will have a read over the link you provided when I have more time. Thanks for letting me know about it." Of course! And I fully understand you having better things to do right now - Merry Christmas :)

bane 12y ago

The Mincome studies don't show a labor dropoff, and that's because Mincome was not a BI program. If you didn't work and tried to live off of Mincome, you'd live at about 1/2 poverty level income. Basically you'd starve or freeze to death. What Mincome did show was negligible effects in almost all other areas, it neither showed significant increases or decreases in almost any measurable area. The reason Mincome was dropped as a program was that it was expensive and virtually worthless. It wasn't worth doing because it doesn't provide any positive benefits. Please please please, if you do anything, don't cherry pick favorable studies and read all of them with critical thinking. Read the unfavorable ones and read the favorable ones and figure out what they aren't saying. Have a great Christmas and New Year as well!

dllthomas 12y ago
The Wikipedia article seems to disagree with you: "Mothers spent more time rearing newborns, and the educational impacts are regarded as a success. Students in these families showed higher test scores and lower dropout rates. There was also an increase in adults continuing education." If you know better, please fix the article.
- bane 12y ago
  I'm not going to fight with WP. Read the reports yourself and look at the statistical differences plus or minus. It's mostly irrelevant since Mincome is not the model any present xBI scheme is working off of.