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I read those comments. They're exactly what I meant by "you keep claiming this". Claiming it's so is not evidence. Perhaps you missed that in your weariness. M

by phaemon 12y ago

I read those comments. They're exactly what I meant by "you keep claiming this". Claiming it's so is not evidence. Perhaps you missed that in your weariness. My question stands: Do you have any evidence for this other than your gut feeling?

bane 12y ago
You can read the Mincome reports yourself. They aren't exactly glowing and most of the reported effects are well within the margin for error in the measurements. BI and UBI has never been tried anywhere in a fully form because it requires everybody on the planet to do it at the same time. The closest we have are economic analogs. For example, resource rich locations that produce wealth at multiples of the labor input. You can study the economics of these places yourself and look at the outcomes. But they basically sum to: people stop working, people collect their money, labor supply needs to be imported from outside the local economy, the people who've stopped working don't exactly spend this new free-time self-actualizing themselves into discovering cures for cancer or unifying the fundamental forces of the universe. If you want evidence, I suggest you open a high-school level history book and start on page 1. If you aren't aware of these cases on your own, but willing to promote nonsense like UBI, you're just being willfully ignorant of history and basic economics. No amount of handwaivery and ignoring poor outcomes based on this or that technicality or goal post move will make cause and effect bend towards making these schemes work. So here's your test: find somebody who's working poor, offer to put them up in your house and feed and clothe them no strings attached. How long before they self-actualize into a high-paid white-collar degree? Repeat this experiment 10,000 times. How many people, given this options, would rather just sit at home all day and surf the internet/watch TV/gossip vs. going out and challenging themselves into a better life? I don't have to answer this, BI advocates do. And they need to present the outcome of this experiment as a real economic model that accurately predicts labor participation and real-world situations. This has never been done and anything outside of this is hand waivy nonsense built on fairy dreams.
- phaemon 12y ago
  > You can read the Mincome reports yourself. I have. And the Namibian ones. And the Indian ones. None of them saw a significant dropoff in labour. > For example, resource rich locations that produce wealth at multiples of the labor input. You can study the economics of these places yourself and look at the outcomes. But they basically sum to: people stop working, people collect their money, labor supply needs to be imported from outside the local economy Like Norway, you mean? > If you want evidence, I suggest you open a high-school level history book and start on page 1. How will a history book help me if "BI and UBI has never been tried anywhere in a fully form"? > And they need to present the outcome of this experiment as a real economic model that accurately predicts labor participation and real-world situations. These were "real-world" situations. They actually occurred in the real world. That's generally considered more "real-world" than economic models are. I think I'll stop here. I'm starting to get too amused with this conversation. Have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!
  - dllthomas 12y ago
    When you say "Indian ones" do you mean the experiments with distributing casino revenues unconditionally amongst a Native American tribe, or something that happened in India that I missed. Not trying to nitpick labels, just want to be clear as to the referents.
    - phaemon 12y ago
      I meant in the country India. I didn't even think about the Native American situation, though now I consider it, it does seem to illustrate the dangers of making payments that are socially exclusive (similar to the problems Australia has faced with its aboriginal people). I think the following links has more details on India, but I've not read through it as it's late on Christmas Eve for me and I'm worried about collapsing the Santa wave-function so I won't get any presents! http://isa-global-dialogue.net/indias-great-experiment-the-transformative-potential-of-basic-income-grants/ http://isa-global-dialogue.net/indias-great-experiment-the-t...
      - dllthomas 12y ago
- discardorama 12y ago
  > You can study the economics of these places yourself and look at the outcomes. Exactly. Look at the Gulf states like Kuwait, Qatar, etc. The locals don't do much work; all of the real work is done by expats.

by phaemon 12y ago

bane 12y ago

You can read the Mincome reports yourself. They aren't exactly glowing and most of the reported effects are well within the margin for error in the measurements. BI and UBI has never been tried anywhere in a fully form because it requires everybody on the planet to do it at the same time. The closest we have are economic analogs. For example, resource rich locations that produce wealth at multiples of the labor input. You can study the economics of these places yourself and look at the outcomes. But they basically sum to: people stop working, people collect their money, labor supply needs to be imported from outside the local economy, the people who've stopped working don't exactly spend this new free-time self-actualizing themselves into discovering cures for cancer or unifying the fundamental forces of the universe. If you want evidence, I suggest you open a high-school level history book and start on page 1. If you aren't aware of these cases on your own, but willing to promote nonsense like UBI, you're just being willfully ignorant of history and basic economics. No amount of handwaivery and ignoring poor outcomes based on this or that technicality or goal post move will make cause and effect bend towards making these schemes work. So here's your test: find somebody who's working poor, offer to put them up in your house and feed and clothe them no strings attached. How long before they self-actualize into a high-paid white-collar degree? Repeat this experiment 10,000 times. How many people, given this options, would rather just sit at home all day and surf the internet/watch TV/gossip vs. going out and challenging themselves into a better life? I don't have to answer this, BI advocates do. And they need to present the outcome of this experiment as a real economic model that accurately predicts labor participation and real-world situations. This has never been done and anything outside of this is hand waivy nonsense built on fairy dreams.

phaemon 12y ago
> You can read the Mincome reports yourself. I have. And the Namibian ones. And the Indian ones. None of them saw a significant dropoff in labour. > For example, resource rich locations that produce wealth at multiples of the labor input. You can study the economics of these places yourself and look at the outcomes. But they basically sum to: people stop working, people collect their money, labor supply needs to be imported from outside the local economy Like Norway, you mean? > If you want evidence, I suggest you open a high-school level history book and start on page 1. How will a history book help me if "BI and UBI has never been tried anywhere in a fully form"? > And they need to present the outcome of this experiment as a real economic model that accurately predicts labor participation and real-world situations. These were "real-world" situations. They actually occurred in the real world. That's generally considered more "real-world" than economic models are. I think I'll stop here. I'm starting to get too amused with this conversation. Have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!
- dllthomas 12y ago
  When you say "Indian ones" do you mean the experiments with distributing casino revenues unconditionally amongst a Native American tribe, or something that happened in India that I missed. Not trying to nitpick labels, just want to be clear as to the referents.
  - phaemon 12y ago
    I meant in the country India. I didn't even think about the Native American situation, though now I consider it, it does seem to illustrate the dangers of making payments that are socially exclusive (similar to the problems Australia has faced with its aboriginal people). I think the following links has more details on India, but I've not read through it as it's late on Christmas Eve for me and I'm worried about collapsing the Santa wave-function so I won't get any presents! http://isa-global-dialogue.net/indias-great-experiment-the-transformative-potential-of-basic-income-grants/ http://isa-global-dialogue.net/indias-great-experiment-the-t...
    - dllthomas 12y ago
discardorama 12y ago
> You can study the economics of these places yourself and look at the outcomes. Exactly. Look at the Gulf states like Kuwait, Qatar, etc. The locals don't do much work; all of the real work is done by expats.