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Your first assumption is a needlessly pessimistic view of the quality/quantity of intrinsic motivation in most people. By the same token something like "most pe

by tbrake 12y ago

Your first assumption is a needlessly pessimistic view of the quality/quantity of intrinsic motivation in most people. By the same token something like "most people would drop out and enjoy the freedom of pursuing their passions, working on what they enjoy and spurring smaller scale local economies etc" might be equally naively optimistic, but I don't think the truth is at either extreme.

jeffdavis 12y ago
Is intrinsic motivation something everyone is born with? Or does it need to be learned and reinforced with positive outcomes? One potential problem is that people may never really develop an intrinsic motivation to work if they aren't given a push early on. Basic Income may eliminate that first push, which I think is crucial. Let's say you are 16. If you get a job, the expectations are low and your needs are low, so you take the first thing to come along. That puts you in a mild discomfort that encourages you to seek better opportunities as they come along, and you are likely to develop a strong intrinsically a motivated work ethic. With Basic Income, your needs are already met, so it's easy to rationalize it away and just say you'll get a job after you graduate from college. By then, the expectations are much higher and your needs are much higher, so you hold out for a better job that may never come because you have no experience. So, you just stay in your comfort zone forever.
- Retra 12y ago
  >Is intrinsic motivation something everyone is born with? Or does it need to be learned and reinforced with positive outcomes? Um... If it needs to be reinforced, then it is extrinsic motivation. That's pretty much the definition of 'extrinsic'. >people may never really develop an intrinsic motivation to work What is 'work?' Aren't most people happy to sit around socializing? Aren't people happy to sit around posting their thoughts on online forums? Why isn't this work? It produces value. >So, you just stay in your comfort zone forever. I guess suffering is what makes life great, then? What is the goal here, if not to let people be comfortable forever? What is the point of having a discussion when you throw out the basic premise? I could make a very strong argument that regularly beating one's children is the best way to raise them, and rationalize all day long with statistics and claims about how reward and punishment are obvious common-sense drives for human behavior. But at the end of the day, it's those beaten children who make the world a worse place, so what good does it really do? If the goal is to have a world where children aren't being beaten, then surely beating children is not a reliable way to achieve that. So what is the problem your argument is trying to solve?
  - sologoub 12y ago
    Exactly, this conversation is about extrinsic factors. It's a widely held belief that experiences of financial need drive some people to succeed financially. In my view, this is a personal question for every individual and not that useful of a generalization. I've been struggling with this question myself in terms of how do I pass my drive on to my future kids. A good deal of my drive comes from the experience of growing up in a collapsing country (90s Russia), but I can't really tell what part of it is the fear of not having enough again and which part of the drive is because I love what I do (and given the option to re-do my career, I'd still take the same profession in a heartbeat). The idealist in me wants to think that love for my work is greater, but the realist thinks it's at best equal parts... With BI, fear won't be as much of a driver, but we are still not talking about "a Ferrari in every garage" kind of BI. It's human nature to always want more. I trust that this nature will prove the "kick".

by tbrake 12y ago

jeffdavis 12y ago

Is intrinsic motivation something everyone is born with? Or does it need to be learned and reinforced with positive outcomes? One potential problem is that people may never really develop an intrinsic motivation to work if they aren't given a push early on. Basic Income may eliminate that first push, which I think is crucial. Let's say you are 16. If you get a job, the expectations are low and your needs are low, so you take the first thing to come along. That puts you in a mild discomfort that encourages you to seek better opportunities as they come along, and you are likely to develop a strong intrinsically a motivated work ethic. With Basic Income, your needs are already met, so it's easy to rationalize it away and just say you'll get a job after you graduate from college. By then, the expectations are much higher and your needs are much higher, so you hold out for a better job that may never come because you have no experience. So, you just stay in your comfort zone forever.

Retra 12y ago
>Is intrinsic motivation something everyone is born with? Or does it need to be learned and reinforced with positive outcomes? Um... If it needs to be reinforced, then it is extrinsic motivation. That's pretty much the definition of 'extrinsic'. >people may never really develop an intrinsic motivation to work What is 'work?' Aren't most people happy to sit around socializing? Aren't people happy to sit around posting their thoughts on online forums? Why isn't this work? It produces value. >So, you just stay in your comfort zone forever. I guess suffering is what makes life great, then? What is the goal here, if not to let people be comfortable forever? What is the point of having a discussion when you throw out the basic premise? I could make a very strong argument that regularly beating one's children is the best way to raise them, and rationalize all day long with statistics and claims about how reward and punishment are obvious common-sense drives for human behavior. But at the end of the day, it's those beaten children who make the world a worse place, so what good does it really do? If the goal is to have a world where children aren't being beaten, then surely beating children is not a reliable way to achieve that. So what is the problem your argument is trying to solve?
- sologoub 12y ago
  Exactly, this conversation is about extrinsic factors. It's a widely held belief that experiences of financial need drive some people to succeed financially. In my view, this is a personal question for every individual and not that useful of a generalization. I've been struggling with this question myself in terms of how do I pass my drive on to my future kids. A good deal of my drive comes from the experience of growing up in a collapsing country (90s Russia), but I can't really tell what part of it is the fear of not having enough again and which part of the drive is because I love what I do (and given the option to re-do my career, I'd still take the same profession in a heartbeat). The idealist in me wants to think that love for my work is greater, but the realist thinks it's at best equal parts... With BI, fear won't be as much of a driver, but we are still not talking about "a Ferrari in every garage" kind of BI. It's human nature to always want more. I trust that this nature will prove the "kick".