Get you, I think that relying on a framework to teach you that is a problem. Once you've used or researched one or more frameworks in an area you learn the succ

Get you, I think that relying on a framework to teach you that is a problem. Once you've used or researched one or more frameworks in an area you learn the successful patterns (right down to file/folder/test/method naming). At that point the whole enforced structure can be a disadvantage.