7 ms·

> "worries over the safety of consumers" Can't consumers decide what their safety requirements are? If they prefer a different service, for safety reasons, can

> "worries over the safety of consumers" Can't consumers decide what their safety requirements are? If they prefer a different service, for safety reasons, can't they just use that service instead?

noelwelsh 12y ago
Not really, because of information asymmetry. Users of taxi services, like users of medicine, are vastly less informed about the quality of the service than those that provide it. Contrary to Uber's propaganda, legislation around taxis is not there, for the most part, to increase the revenue of taxi operators.
- austerity 12y ago
  I don't understand your analogy to medical service. Surely I can assess the quality of taxi service I just received to the highest degree imaginable. And we now have fantastic systems in place to spread this information (e.g. Yelp, Facebook, etc.).
  - valarauca1 12y ago
    Just because information can be disseminated to the general public does not mean that it is understood or acknowledged when making a decision.
  - noelwelsh 12y ago
    You generally want some guarantees before you consume the service. Most would agree it is suboptimal if the first point you can assess the quality of your taxi service is after being raped and dumped out of town (or waking up deaf because your doctor was an alcoholic, which happened to someone I know; the doctor was of course struck off). As to whether other systems like Yelp or Facebook are substitutes for the licensing process -- well, that is a reasonable argument to put forward. It's not the usual one we hear on HN though, which is just libertarian free-market-uber-alles ranting. One complaint I would have about using Yelp or Facebook is that they are private companies, and thus not accountable to the public in the way that government licensing services are.
- justincormack 12y ago
  Well arguably in parts of the US it is there due to restrictive practises. Much of the rest of the world has much more deregulated taxi services, with some regulation around non ripoff pricing and safety from being attacked by drivers being the main concerns.
- donatj 12y ago
  Anyone with a smart phone to use Uber is capable of researching though. If they don't research the onus is on them. I don't just blindly buy products, or hire contractors it's not 1950. I always read reviews first. The people HAVE the power to find competitors in their area. If they donee en try that's not anyone's fault but their own.
  - noelwelsh 12y ago
    Like you, I always have a charged battery, a data connection, and the time to conduct research. I also have a PhD in chemistry, and I find this knowledge invaluable for assessing the potential for harm of all food additivies and environmental pollutants. I find this nicely complements my medical training, which of course helps me make the best decisions regarding my health, and my PhD in CS which keeps my data safe online. Of course my 15 years of MMA keeps me safe on the street, and my extensive knowledge of finance means I never have to worry about my bank's financial security. I really don't understand why we need any governmental organisations!
    - donatj 12y ago
      Comparing taxi pricing to food safety is crass. Last I checked there weren't degress in taxi fair-ology.
      - anon1385 12y ago
        It's not about pricing. In Germany one of the issues for Uber was that they weren't ensuring the vehicles had the more frequent mechanical safety checks that the law requires for commercial vehicles (the logic being that they do far more miles). How is the average customer supposed to be able to decide how much risk is involved in the fact that one vehicle hasn't had its breaks inspected in the last X thousand miles, and another has? In the Uber world, how does the customer even get hold of that information? It sounds perfectly reasonable to me to compare failing breaks with contaminated food. Both have the potential to be highly dangerous.
        12y ago
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
jfoster 12y ago
Of course they could. This is about revenue. Governments don't make nearly as much money from Uber as they do from taxis. There's the licensing factor, but there's also the way the service is taxed. UberX drivers pay personal income tax, but in most cases are probably not companies, so they probably don't pay company tax. Even Uber's cut of each ride probably isn't recorded as revenue of the local Uber entity, assuming Uber uses the same structure as most other large tech companies. Long story short, governments are losing a lot of revenue due to Uber and (similarly) Airbnb. Consumers won't abide that as a reason for shutting Uber down, though, so they claim it's less safe. Taxi companies are happy to play along with that.
- 0x0 12y ago
  Many places tax personal income much more heavily than company income, so I'm not sure that argument is universal.
  - jfoster 12y ago
    Taxi companies pay both.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
briandear 12y ago
That would require personal responsibility-- we certainly can't promote that. It might lead to a snowball effect where people might demand control over their own lives in other areas, such as substances they choose to consume, education they choose to pursue (or not pursue) or people taking charge of their own health. We certainly can't allow that, the "people" are helpless and if left to their own devices, they might just starve or overdose on Sudafed.
humanrebar 12y ago
If you want a light touch regulation from the government about this, you might want to figure out a simple way to let riders know about the licensing and bonding of the taxi and/or driver. And presuming that forces all taxis to have insurance, the information asymmetry problem is solved because the insurance company will have much more information about safety. To be clear, there is certainly information asymmetry around the insurance and bonding levels of a cab. And it's way too expensive to investigate before getting in the cab. It would be cheaper to just hire a car service.
prostoalex 12y ago
So as a client, how would I currently pull the driver's criminal record (to check for DUIs and road rage incidents), insurance claims (to check for frequency of accidents), vehicle maintenance records (to ensure I'm not driven in something that's going to fall apart when we hit 65 mph) and proof of high liability insurance (to ensure my medical costs will be covered if an accident happens)?

> "worries over the safety of consumers" Can't consumers decide what their safety requirements are? If they prefer a different service, for safety reasons, can't they just use that service instead?

noelwelsh 12y ago

Not really, because of information asymmetry. Users of taxi services, like users of medicine, are vastly less informed about the quality of the service than those that provide it. Contrary to Uber's propaganda, legislation around taxis is not there, for the most part, to increase the revenue of taxi operators.

austerity 12y ago
I don't understand your analogy to medical service. Surely I can assess the quality of taxi service I just received to the highest degree imaginable. And we now have fantastic systems in place to spread this information (e.g. Yelp, Facebook, etc.).
- valarauca1 12y ago
  Just because information can be disseminated to the general public does not mean that it is understood or acknowledged when making a decision.
- noelwelsh 12y ago
  You generally want some guarantees before you consume the service. Most would agree it is suboptimal if the first point you can assess the quality of your taxi service is after being raped and dumped out of town (or waking up deaf because your doctor was an alcoholic, which happened to someone I know; the doctor was of course struck off). As to whether other systems like Yelp or Facebook are substitutes for the licensing process -- well, that is a reasonable argument to put forward. It's not the usual one we hear on HN though, which is just libertarian free-market-uber-alles ranting. One complaint I would have about using Yelp or Facebook is that they are private companies, and thus not accountable to the public in the way that government licensing services are.
justincormack 12y ago
Well arguably in parts of the US it is there due to restrictive practises. Much of the rest of the world has much more deregulated taxi services, with some regulation around non ripoff pricing and safety from being attacked by drivers being the main concerns.
donatj 12y ago
Anyone with a smart phone to use Uber is capable of researching though. If they don't research the onus is on them. I don't just blindly buy products, or hire contractors it's not 1950. I always read reviews first. The people HAVE the power to find competitors in their area. If they donee en try that's not anyone's fault but their own.
- noelwelsh 12y ago
  Like you, I always have a charged battery, a data connection, and the time to conduct research. I also have a PhD in chemistry, and I find this knowledge invaluable for assessing the potential for harm of all food additivies and environmental pollutants. I find this nicely complements my medical training, which of course helps me make the best decisions regarding my health, and my PhD in CS which keeps my data safe online. Of course my 15 years of MMA keeps me safe on the street, and my extensive knowledge of finance means I never have to worry about my bank's financial security. I really don't understand why we need any governmental organisations!
  - donatj 12y ago
    Comparing taxi pricing to food safety is crass. Last I checked there weren't degress in taxi fair-ology.
    - anon1385 12y ago
      It's not about pricing. In Germany one of the issues for Uber was that they weren't ensuring the vehicles had the more frequent mechanical safety checks that the law requires for commercial vehicles (the logic being that they do far more miles). How is the average customer supposed to be able to decide how much risk is involved in the fact that one vehicle hasn't had its breaks inspected in the last X thousand miles, and another has? In the Uber world, how does the customer even get hold of that information? It sounds perfectly reasonable to me to compare failing breaks with contaminated food. Both have the potential to be highly dangerous.
      - 12y ago

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

jfoster 12y ago

Of course they could. This is about revenue. Governments don't make nearly as much money from Uber as they do from taxis. There's the licensing factor, but there's also the way the service is taxed. UberX drivers pay personal income tax, but in most cases are probably not companies, so they probably don't pay company tax. Even Uber's cut of each ride probably isn't recorded as revenue of the local Uber entity, assuming Uber uses the same structure as most other large tech companies. Long story short, governments are losing a lot of revenue due to Uber and (similarly) Airbnb. Consumers won't abide that as a reason for shutting Uber down, though, so they claim it's less safe. Taxi companies are happy to play along with that.

0x0 12y ago
Many places tax personal income much more heavily than company income, so I'm not sure that argument is universal.
- jfoster 12y ago
  Taxi companies pay both.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

briandear 12y ago

That would require personal responsibility-- we certainly can't promote that. It might lead to a snowball effect where people might demand control over their own lives in other areas, such as substances they choose to consume, education they choose to pursue (or not pursue) or people taking charge of their own health. We certainly can't allow that, the "people" are helpless and if left to their own devices, they might just starve or overdose on Sudafed.

humanrebar 12y ago

If you want a light touch regulation from the government about this, you might want to figure out a simple way to let riders know about the licensing and bonding of the taxi and/or driver. And presuming that forces all taxis to have insurance, the information asymmetry problem is solved because the insurance company will have much more information about safety. To be clear, there is certainly information asymmetry around the insurance and bonding levels of a cab. And it's way too expensive to investigate before getting in the cab. It would be cheaper to just hire a car service.

prostoalex 12y ago

So as a client, how would I currently pull the driver's criminal record (to check for DUIs and road rage incidents), insurance claims (to check for frequency of accidents), vehicle maintenance records (to ensure I'm not driven in something that's going to fall apart when we hit 65 mph) and proof of high liability insurance (to ensure my medical costs will be covered if an accident happens)?