3 ms·

That's actually what struck me about it, and why I thought it worth talking about here. Given pg's recent essay on successful people having high correlation wit

That's actually what struck me about it, and why I thought it worth talking about here. Given pg's recent essay on successful people having high correlation with being nice people (entitled Mean People Fail), I though it'd be interesting to talk about what the science says (I'm not suggesting pg is wrong; I've met a number of the people I suspect he was talking about, and I also found them to be extremely nice people, generally speaking). But, maybe it's just a difference of definition of what makes people kind, generous, etc. It has been my experience that some of the most generous people I've met in my several years of traveling almost full-time have been some of the poorest people. Many homeless folks I've met would happily share anything they had, despite having very little. It's an interesting phenomenon. pg's essay: http://paulgraham.com/mean.html http://paulgraham.com/mean.html

seivadmas 12y ago
At the risk of sounding callous, perhaps they are poor BECAUSE they are so indiscriminately generous. Everyone is needy. Everyone always needs help. People have an infinite capacity to suck up your help and they will always need more. Probably like many programmers, I love producing work for other people that makes them happy. There is nothing that delights me more than watching someone's face light up while using my software and saying "Oh, this is EXACTLY what I need!" The problem is there are many people out there who will happily take your best work and pay little to nothing for it. I've learned this from bitter personal experience. A truly selfless person would give their best work away forever for as little as they needed to survive. But this kind of generosity will leave you penniless and the kind of people that use your work for nothing will not thank you for it. Your employer only pays you because he needs you. If you respond to neediness by giving, you lose your power and your ability to get paid for your work. To retain wealth requires a kind of dulling of your own innate urge to help others. Because nobody else will stop you from giving and giving and giving until you are an exhausted shell with nothing to show for it. I'm not saying this is the ideal way to behave, but we have to live in the reality that exists, not an imaginary idealized one.
- SwellJoe 12y ago
  So, you're arguing that mean people don't fail, as pg posited, and that this study isn't flawed. But, you're also arguing that selfishness is a rational choice that leads to wealth. I don't think I buy the correlation is causation claim you've made between selfishness and wealthy people; or, to flip it, that poor people are poor because they aren't more selfish. There are too many other variables that can explain most poor people being poor; by far, the single best indicator of whether a person will be poor is whether their parents were poor. Many other indicators, education, health, nutrition in childhood, abuse, addictions, etc. follow from the first. So, I find it hard to swallow your premise that greed makes one wealthy and generosity makes one poor. Certainly there are extremes, and it's entirely possible to give away the entirety of ones wealth and become poor, but I don't know of many examples of that (I've read about some cult members who have given away all of their money to the cult, but not a lot of other examples) or any research indicating it is common. There was recently an article about meritocracy, which had the same basic takeaway I get from this video: That rich people assume they got there by merit and that they deserve everything they have. And, it discussed the tendency among those at the top to exhibit little desire to help others up, or any sense that they might be ethically obligated to do so. I went through an Ayn Rand phase when I was a kid, so I can kinda see where this mentality comes from. But, I don't know that it actually maximizes happiness or utility (if one allows "utility" to contain values other than money). And, I also doubt it results in wealth for the majority of people who grow up poor and practice selfishness.
humanrebar 12y ago
A different theory is that some people value social capital above other forms of capital and that can be a rational thing to do: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AchISJUKfH4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AchISJUKfH4
oldmanjay 12y ago
anecdote vs. anecdote: I've never been robbed at gunpoint by a rich person. however...
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- lamuerteflaca 12y ago
  They don't need to. They have better ways to rob you and with less risk. Excibit A: Bankers
  - oldmanjay 12y ago
    ohh is the existence of the banking system the reason that poor people are always kind and noble? I'm not seeing any connection at all between those two concepts, but whatever makes you feel better while you fight the power is good by me.
- rmxt 12y ago
  That's because the rich person will pay a poor person to do it, whether figuratively (armies and conscription, down to municipal law enforcement that maintains the status quo) or literally (cartels and crime rings).
downandout 12y ago
>I though it'd be interesting to talk about what the science says There was a tiny bit of science in there and a whole lot of hyperbole. He didn't say how many wealthy people he studied for lack of empathy, how many did show empathy, or how many poor people he studied for to compare to. Also, his assertion that rich people give less to charity than poor people is provably false. It's a mix of hyperbole, blatantly wrong information, and politically influenced generalizations - all masquerading as science. The point of my comment was that he mislabeled his video for the purpose of trying to cloak his political views in a shroud of legitimacy and impartiality. Had he called it "Rich people hate you" it would have been more closely related to his message, but people would see it for what it is: his opinion.
- toomuchtodo 12y ago
  Here's some more science then. http://www.cbc.ca/thecurrent/episode/2013/10/16/are-the-rich-less-feeling-research-suggests-wealth-reduces-compassion/ http://www.cbc.ca/thecurrent/episode/2013/10/16/are-the-rich... http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-wealth-reduces-compassion/ http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-wealth-reduces... http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/10/05/rich-people-just-care-less/ http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/10/05/rich-people-...
- SwellJoe 12y ago
  The video has links to the research groups who made the video; both links have lists of peer-reviewed publications related to this topic (and others), many of which are downloadable. http://socrates.berkeley.edu/~keltner/publications.htm http://socrates.berkeley.edu/~keltner/publications.htm http://greatergood.berkeley.edu/resources/studies http://greatergood.berkeley.edu/resources/studies

seivadmas 12y ago

At the risk of sounding callous, perhaps they are poor BECAUSE they are so indiscriminately generous. Everyone is needy. Everyone always needs help. People have an infinite capacity to suck up your help and they will always need more. Probably like many programmers, I love producing work for other people that makes them happy. There is nothing that delights me more than watching someone's face light up while using my software and saying "Oh, this is EXACTLY what I need!" The problem is there are many people out there who will happily take your best work and pay little to nothing for it. I've learned this from bitter personal experience. A truly selfless person would give their best work away forever for as little as they needed to survive. But this kind of generosity will leave you penniless and the kind of people that use your work for nothing will not thank you for it. Your employer only pays you because he needs you. If you respond to neediness by giving, you lose your power and your ability to get paid for your work. To retain wealth requires a kind of dulling of your own innate urge to help others. Because nobody else will stop you from giving and giving and giving until you are an exhausted shell with nothing to show for it. I'm not saying this is the ideal way to behave, but we have to live in the reality that exists, not an imaginary idealized one.

SwellJoe 12y ago
So, you're arguing that mean people don't fail, as pg posited, and that this study isn't flawed. But, you're also arguing that selfishness is a rational choice that leads to wealth. I don't think I buy the correlation is causation claim you've made between selfishness and wealthy people; or, to flip it, that poor people are poor because they aren't more selfish. There are too many other variables that can explain most poor people being poor; by far, the single best indicator of whether a person will be poor is whether their parents were poor. Many other indicators, education, health, nutrition in childhood, abuse, addictions, etc. follow from the first. So, I find it hard to swallow your premise that greed makes one wealthy and generosity makes one poor. Certainly there are extremes, and it's entirely possible to give away the entirety of ones wealth and become poor, but I don't know of many examples of that (I've read about some cult members who have given away all of their money to the cult, but not a lot of other examples) or any research indicating it is common. There was recently an article about meritocracy, which had the same basic takeaway I get from this video: That rich people assume they got there by merit and that they deserve everything they have. And, it discussed the tendency among those at the top to exhibit little desire to help others up, or any sense that they might be ethically obligated to do so. I went through an Ayn Rand phase when I was a kid, so I can kinda see where this mentality comes from. But, I don't know that it actually maximizes happiness or utility (if one allows "utility" to contain values other than money). And, I also doubt it results in wealth for the majority of people who grow up poor and practice selfishness.

humanrebar 12y ago

A different theory is that some people value social capital above other forms of capital and that can be a rational thing to do: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AchISJUKfH4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AchISJUKfH4

oldmanjay 12y ago

anecdote vs. anecdote: I've never been robbed at gunpoint by a rich person. however...

deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
lamuerteflaca 12y ago
They don't need to. They have better ways to rob you and with less risk. Excibit A: Bankers
- oldmanjay 12y ago
  ohh is the existence of the banking system the reason that poor people are always kind and noble? I'm not seeing any connection at all between those two concepts, but whatever makes you feel better while you fight the power is good by me.
rmxt 12y ago
That's because the rich person will pay a poor person to do it, whether figuratively (armies and conscription, down to municipal law enforcement that maintains the status quo) or literally (cartels and crime rings).

downandout 12y ago

>I though it'd be interesting to talk about what the science says There was a tiny bit of science in there and a whole lot of hyperbole. He didn't say how many wealthy people he studied for lack of empathy, how many did show empathy, or how many poor people he studied for to compare to. Also, his assertion that rich people give less to charity than poor people is provably false. It's a mix of hyperbole, blatantly wrong information, and politically influenced generalizations - all masquerading as science. The point of my comment was that he mislabeled his video for the purpose of trying to cloak his political views in a shroud of legitimacy and impartiality. Had he called it "Rich people hate you" it would have been more closely related to his message, but people would see it for what it is: his opinion.

toomuchtodo 12y ago
Here's some more science then. http://www.cbc.ca/thecurrent/episode/2013/10/16/are-the-rich-less-feeling-research-suggests-wealth-reduces-compassion/ http://www.cbc.ca/thecurrent/episode/2013/10/16/are-the-rich... http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-wealth-reduces-compassion/ http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-wealth-reduces... http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/10/05/rich-people-just-care-less/ http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/10/05/rich-people-...
SwellJoe 12y ago
The video has links to the research groups who made the video; both links have lists of peer-reviewed publications related to this topic (and others), many of which are downloadable. http://socrates.berkeley.edu/~keltner/publications.htm http://socrates.berkeley.edu/~keltner/publications.htm http://greatergood.berkeley.edu/resources/studies http://greatergood.berkeley.edu/resources/studies