5 ms·

Schools are not looking to admit the best students - they are looking to admit the best class. That means that they have an idea of what the shape and characte

Schools are not looking to admit the best students - they are looking to admit the best class. That means that they have an idea of what the shape and character of that class will look like, after taking into account certain restrictions (legacies, athletes, the band needs a tuba player, whatnot). There are only so many slots for high-achieving student council presidents. I look like every other Indian kid to the admissions committees; I needed to distinguish myself in other ways. If you're poor and Latino and you qualify academically, guess what, you've already distinguished yourself. Anti-Asian quotas aren't anti-Asian. They're anti-homogenous.

codexon 17y ago
I would think a school wants more future billionaires and Nobel prize winners instead of cherry picking 10 whites 10 asians 10 hispanics 10 blacks majoring in Art History and Divinity. This is certainly the image that Harvard et al. are cultivating.
- amichail 17y ago
  Perhaps diversity is part of the education.
  - uuilly 17y ago
    Diversity in what? Color of skin? What about political or Religious beliefs? Those attributes are a lot more definitive than skin color.
  - btilly 17y ago
    Absolutely. Elite schools are selling a product. And the product that Harvard, Yale, etc sell is the image that they create well-rounded future leaders who are going places. There is an easy way to see whether you're part of the target market the school is selling to. Just look at how much financial aid they are willing to give you. If they are willing to give you generous financial aid, then you're part of the product being sold, not the target market. According to Harvard's current financial aid packages, if your parents make under $60,000, you're part of the product. If they make up to $120,000, you get steep discounts. If you're honest, there is an even easier way to judge. When I was at Dartmouth College the figure I heard was that they got more in donations each year than tuition. If your family is able to make those donations, then you are really in their target market.
- tsally 17y ago
  By that logic every school should admit as many males as it can. Let's not even get into race, you're cutting out most women of any color. Turns out that making billions and winning the Nobel prize isn't what education is really about.
  - codexon 17y ago
    You are looking at it the wrong way. There is a difference between simply selecting only white males and and simply selecting based on academic merit.
    - tsally 17y ago
      You are looking at it the wrong way. I'm only looking at it through the lens you presented, which was maximizing the number of billionaires and Nobel winners. If I'm looking at it wrong, it's your logic that is at fault. There is a difference between simply selecting only white males and and simply selecting based on academic merit. You need to reassess the idea that selecting the most academically talented students will result in the most successful graduating class.
      - codexon 17y ago
        It is only by your own racist assumption that white males are the best for that. Edit This comment was at +4, but people are now downvoting it for looking like a non sequitur because tsally removed his racist comment.
        tsally 17y ago
        It is only by your own racist assumption that white males are the best for that. There are more male billionaires and Nobel winners than any other demographic in the world. If I wanted to maximize my output of these types of alumni in the short term, my class would overwhelmingly be male. --- It's a subtle point, but this statement is far from racist. You should exercise more care throwing around such a serious term in the future. EDIT: I'm going to change my statements to males in general, so you can't play the race card and obnoxiously ignore my point. Let the record show my original contention was white male, which I still stand by.
- csmajorfive 17y ago
  There's more to life than dollars and prizes. I went to one of these schools and as a freshman would've probably had the same reaction -- who needs forced diversity? Why admit people on factors besides the quantitative? If the rich kids score better, they deserve it more. I'm proud to have graduated with a different outlook. The diversity of background, opportunity, and thought created by these policies is worth it. Sure, they're not perfect. Asians should not be penalized and, for that matter, we should probably just look at income rather than skin color. Nonetheless, the answer is not to eliminate "soft factors" from the process. I cherish time spent with my housemates and girlfriends who did not have the same opportunities I did in high school. They're off doing wonderful things now and will succeed by the traditional metrics.
uuilly 17y ago
I think they would get a much better class by admitting people based on their merits rather than what a bunch of academics feel is the correct racial cocktail. It's as if it's not racism if the culture you're pulling down is successful.
jimmybot 17y ago
"Anti-Asian quotas aren't anti-Asian." They are going to be in a lot of trouble if they are using upper-limit quotas outright. Quotas, then intangibles and geographic diversity were once used to limit the number of Jews at top universities (Jews being largely in urban areas in the Northeast and the West Coast). There'd be a huge uproar if it could be shown that similar policies were being used to limit the number of Jews at top universities today. Some kind of sense of fairness in the admissions process, even accounting for considerations of diversity is still something that colleges strive for, and if they discriminate, in some forms it is illegal and even when it's not, there's so much public money involved that they would still have to consider public opinion. There's also a straw man in your Latino example. Set aside groups that are treated favorably for reasons of diversity. Probably the two largest groups we're left with are whites and Asians. Whites aren't underrepresented, but this study is implying that it probably is significantly easier for someone white to get into a top school than it is for someone Asian. How do you choose between the two based on diversity when neither is underrepresented?
brandnewlow 17y ago
This is all true in my experience, as if I'd written it myself. The kid who filed the complaint wasn't discriminated against because he was asian. He was probably discriminated against because he was BORING. I worked at PU during the time this lawsuit was kicking around. Never looked at the kid's credentials or anything, but what I read about him in the press made him sound like every other asian kid who applied to the Ivies, with the added wrinkle of being a sore loser. Poor Latino students with great academic credentials are rare in America. They get snapped up and fought over by admissions committees. Poor/middle class Asian students with great academic credentials are dime a dozen in America. The very best of them get snapped up and fought over, the rest face a roll of the dice like a lot of other applicants. If you're an elite college, you want to fill your class with outliers. You're looking for purple cows. Unfortunately for Asians who play the violin, get perfect test scores, and hold student council positions, that's a really common profile. When I was working at admissions at Princeton Asian students would ask me how they could stand out in the applicant pool. I would tell them to stop the piano and violin lessons and go to clown school. Or for those in the scienCe/engineering track, I'd tell them to actually make something interesting that they were passionate about because few of them had actually accomplished anything tangible outside of school activities. If you want to be admitted based on how smart you are, you can't just show potential. You've got to show us proof that you're doing stuff with that brain. As common as that profile was, the best application I ever read was from a middle class Asian-American woman who was class president and played the violin.... ...and who didn't just compete in the Intel science fair, she WON it... ...and wrote a hilarious essay about counting in finger binary (128!)... ...and who filed her first of 4 patents at 13 years old... ...and who had a rave letter of recommendation from the woman who ran the local senior center... When you spot a true outlier, you snap them up every time.

codexon 17y ago

I would think a school wants more future billionaires and Nobel prize winners instead of cherry picking 10 whites 10 asians 10 hispanics 10 blacks majoring in Art History and Divinity. This is certainly the image that Harvard et al. are cultivating.

amichail 17y ago
Perhaps diversity is part of the education.
- uuilly 17y ago
  Diversity in what? Color of skin? What about political or Religious beliefs? Those attributes are a lot more definitive than skin color.
- btilly 17y ago
  Absolutely. Elite schools are selling a product. And the product that Harvard, Yale, etc sell is the image that they create well-rounded future leaders who are going places. There is an easy way to see whether you're part of the target market the school is selling to. Just look at how much financial aid they are willing to give you. If they are willing to give you generous financial aid, then you're part of the product being sold, not the target market. According to Harvard's current financial aid packages, if your parents make under $60,000, you're part of the product. If they make up to $120,000, you get steep discounts. If you're honest, there is an even easier way to judge. When I was at Dartmouth College the figure I heard was that they got more in donations each year than tuition. If your family is able to make those donations, then you are really in their target market.
tsally 17y ago
By that logic every school should admit as many males as it can. Let's not even get into race, you're cutting out most women of any color. Turns out that making billions and winning the Nobel prize isn't what education is really about.
- codexon 17y ago
  You are looking at it the wrong way. There is a difference between simply selecting only white males and and simply selecting based on academic merit.
  - tsally 17y ago
    You are looking at it the wrong way. I'm only looking at it through the lens you presented, which was maximizing the number of billionaires and Nobel winners. If I'm looking at it wrong, it's your logic that is at fault. There is a difference between simply selecting only white males and and simply selecting based on academic merit. You need to reassess the idea that selecting the most academically talented students will result in the most successful graduating class.
    - codexon 17y ago
      It is only by your own racist assumption that white males are the best for that. Edit This comment was at +4, but people are now downvoting it for looking like a non sequitur because tsally removed his racist comment.
      - tsally 17y ago
        It is only by your own racist assumption that white males are the best for that. There are more male billionaires and Nobel winners than any other demographic in the world. If I wanted to maximize my output of these types of alumni in the short term, my class would overwhelmingly be male. --- It's a subtle point, but this statement is far from racist. You should exercise more care throwing around such a serious term in the future. EDIT: I'm going to change my statements to males in general, so you can't play the race card and obnoxiously ignore my point. Let the record show my original contention was white male, which I still stand by.
csmajorfive 17y ago
There's more to life than dollars and prizes. I went to one of these schools and as a freshman would've probably had the same reaction -- who needs forced diversity? Why admit people on factors besides the quantitative? If the rich kids score better, they deserve it more. I'm proud to have graduated with a different outlook. The diversity of background, opportunity, and thought created by these policies is worth it. Sure, they're not perfect. Asians should not be penalized and, for that matter, we should probably just look at income rather than skin color. Nonetheless, the answer is not to eliminate "soft factors" from the process. I cherish time spent with my housemates and girlfriends who did not have the same opportunities I did in high school. They're off doing wonderful things now and will succeed by the traditional metrics.

uuilly 17y ago

I think they would get a much better class by admitting people based on their merits rather than what a bunch of academics feel is the correct racial cocktail. It's as if it's not racism if the culture you're pulling down is successful.

jimmybot 17y ago

"Anti-Asian quotas aren't anti-Asian." They are going to be in a lot of trouble if they are using upper-limit quotas outright. Quotas, then intangibles and geographic diversity were once used to limit the number of Jews at top universities (Jews being largely in urban areas in the Northeast and the West Coast). There'd be a huge uproar if it could be shown that similar policies were being used to limit the number of Jews at top universities today. Some kind of sense of fairness in the admissions process, even accounting for considerations of diversity is still something that colleges strive for, and if they discriminate, in some forms it is illegal and even when it's not, there's so much public money involved that they would still have to consider public opinion. There's also a straw man in your Latino example. Set aside groups that are treated favorably for reasons of diversity. Probably the two largest groups we're left with are whites and Asians. Whites aren't underrepresented, but this study is implying that it probably is significantly easier for someone white to get into a top school than it is for someone Asian. How do you choose between the two based on diversity when neither is underrepresented?

brandnewlow 17y ago

This is all true in my experience, as if I'd written it myself. The kid who filed the complaint wasn't discriminated against because he was asian. He was probably discriminated against because he was BORING. I worked at PU during the time this lawsuit was kicking around. Never looked at the kid's credentials or anything, but what I read about him in the press made him sound like every other asian kid who applied to the Ivies, with the added wrinkle of being a sore loser. Poor Latino students with great academic credentials are rare in America. They get snapped up and fought over by admissions committees. Poor/middle class Asian students with great academic credentials are dime a dozen in America. The very best of them get snapped up and fought over, the rest face a roll of the dice like a lot of other applicants. If you're an elite college, you want to fill your class with outliers. You're looking for purple cows. Unfortunately for Asians who play the violin, get perfect test scores, and hold student council positions, that's a really common profile. When I was working at admissions at Princeton Asian students would ask me how they could stand out in the applicant pool. I would tell them to stop the piano and violin lessons and go to clown school. Or for those in the scienCe/engineering track, I'd tell them to actually make something interesting that they were passionate about because few of them had actually accomplished anything tangible outside of school activities. If you want to be admitted based on how smart you are, you can't just show potential. You've got to show us proof that you're doing stuff with that brain. As common as that profile was, the best application I ever read was from a middle class Asian-American woman who was class president and played the violin.... ...and who didn't just compete in the Intel science fair, she WON it... ...and wrote a hilarious essay about counting in finger binary (128!)... ...and who filed her first of 4 patents at 13 years old... ...and who had a rave letter of recommendation from the woman who ran the local senior center... When you spot a true outlier, you snap them up every time.