4 ms·

Although I don't like to believe everything the government says (and I have no idea whether they are correct or not in this situation) please stop turning HN in

Although I don't like to believe everything the government says (and I have no idea whether they are correct or not in this situation) please stop turning HN into conspiracy theory central. The last week has seen a few of these 'experts debunk North Korea theory' on the front page every day. Due to the fact the FBI has withheld some of their evidence from the public we won't know. Unless we can see all of the evidence we won't know their reasoning. If the US was threatening war with NK over this I would be much more worried and glad to see these posts but considering the only action they are even considering is putting NK on a 'terrorism list' they probably aren't all that confident in their own evidence never mind the stuff they've made public. I guess my point is please stop posting this stuff. Whenever anything newsworthy happens the 'experts' (in any field) come out in force debunking stuff when they don't have all the evidence. It drives me nuts. I know this is a community and if people find it interesting it'll end up on the front page - that's fine, it's just getting a little annoying.

joelrunyon 12y ago
I don't think they're "debunking" anything as much as asking certain questions that lots of people have. I think it's worth having that discussion. Nobody is proposing any conspiracies - just due diligence.
- k-mcgrady 12y ago
  Of course, but the discussion has taken places several posts per day for the last week. Unless the FBI releases more information or Sony releases more information there's likely nothing new to discover.
  - xnull2guest 12y ago
    Haven't those discussions been largely mixes of new people? I think it's fair for the people who didn't get a chance to weigh in the first time to have their own deliberation about it.
    - talmand 12y ago
      But you don't understand, once it's been posted it never needs to be discussed ever again. If you didn't read it the first time then tough luck. My theory is the half-life of a subject is ten years before absolutely no one is bothered about it being discussed again.
      - xnull2guest 12y ago
        I understand and I disagree with this sentiment wholeheartedly.
      - lotsofmangos 12y ago
        I can cheerfully discuss the same subject ten times in a row on the same evidence, reach a different conclusion each time and still consider the exercise worthwhile.
      - joelrunyon 12y ago
        I'm pretty sure this is sarcasm.
        xnull2guest 12y ago
        I didn't consider that. I hope so.
        talmand 12y ago
        It is indeed sarcasm. This is one of my pet peeves on sites like this, the assumption that if a story was discussed once then everyone for all time can just refer to the appropriate thread and heaven forbid an alternate thread pop up. It's as if having a different discussion at the same time or at some point later by people who have not heard of the story before and most likely have no clue the previous thread exists is a serious problem.
        ForcesOfOdin 12y ago
        Thank you. I know that feel. As for the OP : it's probably Russia, pretending to be Chinese hackers working out of North Korea. Destabilization indeed. North Korea's 1000 IP internet (seriously, their whole country, USA has almost 1billion IPs) was shut down for a long time recently. Things are moving! Speculate! Speculate! Speculate!
  - mikehotel 12y ago
    In a data breach this large, the confidential data itself can be a source of new information. https://www.riskbasedsecurity.com/2014/12/a-breakdown-and-analysis-of-the-december-2014-sony-hack https://www.riskbasedsecurity.com/2014/12/a-breakdown-and-an... has a decent overview of what you may have missed if you are only paying attention to FBI or SPE press releases.
- vezzy-fnord 12y ago
  Moreover, there's nothing wrong with proposing conspiracies, given that clandestine operations have been sort of essential throughout world history. Once they become historical fact though, people simply cease thinking of them as "conspiracies" due to the tainted meanings the word evokes. It's really strange, actually. In secondary school history you see a trend of authoritarianism being the most widespread form of governmental structure, yet for some reason we've been told to accept that during the past few decades the world leaders all had a change of heart and first world governments suddenly became all benevolent. Or maybe it's a US-specific thing related to their sense of exceptionalism.
aqme28 12y ago
I take the complete opposite approach. It sounds more like a conspiracy theory to take the FBI's word on this without significant evidence. Just like with any other alleged crime, the skeptical view (innocent until proven guilty) is best.
- Xeoncross 12y ago
  you have no right to question the question
- mikeash 12y ago
  The skeptical view is to say "I don't know" until you have enough evidence to know. Innocent until proven guilty is how the courts operate, it's not a guide to skepticism. The skeptic's reaction to an alleged crime without sufficient evidence to prove innocence or guilt should be, "I don't know." Many (most? all?) of the contrarians on this issue are basically saying, the FBI can't be trusted, and they are wrong. That's not skepticism, that's just being contrary.
dragontamer 12y ago
The reason to not buy the claim is that tracking down hackers is an extremely difficult task. North Korea is a "best bet" to report, much like the previous "Google Hacks" were probably China. But in the world of hacking, you never really know.
ivanca 12y ago
The FBI having "proof" that they can't disclose is just as good as nothing, you can pretty much do any claim as long as you can just say that you can't disclose all information. Please, this is the same people who said Iraq had nuclear guns, a much more serious claim.
pdabbadabba 12y ago
I think it's a bit hyperbolic to color the recent HN posts as "conspiracy theories." While I don't find them persuasive, the posts I've read have simply been honest attempts to evaluate the public claims implicating North Korea. What I do find interesting and objectionable, though, is that these articles have, in my view, been of uncharacteristically low quality. Ironically, it would seem that the collective HN wisdom and skepticism becomes dormant when confronted with an article seeming to confirm their antecedent skepticism towards the U.S. government.
- k-mcgrady 12y ago
  I know I was being hyperbolic. You nailed it in your second paragraph - that's my problem. Several posts per day regurgitating what was posted yesterday. Until we have more information from Sony, the FBI, or the hackers I wouldn't mind not seeing these posts from 'experts'. Trust me, I'm always skeptical of the Us government. I don't know whether to believe them or not in this instance. But these posts are just getting irritating.

joelrunyon 12y ago

I don't think they're "debunking" anything as much as asking certain questions that lots of people have. I think it's worth having that discussion. Nobody is proposing any conspiracies - just due diligence.

k-mcgrady 12y ago
Of course, but the discussion has taken places several posts per day for the last week. Unless the FBI releases more information or Sony releases more information there's likely nothing new to discover.
- xnull2guest 12y ago
  Haven't those discussions been largely mixes of new people? I think it's fair for the people who didn't get a chance to weigh in the first time to have their own deliberation about it.
  - talmand 12y ago
    But you don't understand, once it's been posted it never needs to be discussed ever again. If you didn't read it the first time then tough luck. My theory is the half-life of a subject is ten years before absolutely no one is bothered about it being discussed again.
    - xnull2guest 12y ago
      I understand and I disagree with this sentiment wholeheartedly.
    - lotsofmangos 12y ago
      I can cheerfully discuss the same subject ten times in a row on the same evidence, reach a different conclusion each time and still consider the exercise worthwhile.
    - joelrunyon 12y ago
      I'm pretty sure this is sarcasm.
      - xnull2guest 12y ago
        I didn't consider that. I hope so.
        talmand 12y ago
        It is indeed sarcasm. This is one of my pet peeves on sites like this, the assumption that if a story was discussed once then everyone for all time can just refer to the appropriate thread and heaven forbid an alternate thread pop up. It's as if having a different discussion at the same time or at some point later by people who have not heard of the story before and most likely have no clue the previous thread exists is a serious problem.
        ForcesOfOdin 12y ago
        Thank you. I know that feel. As for the OP : it's probably Russia, pretending to be Chinese hackers working out of North Korea. Destabilization indeed. North Korea's 1000 IP internet (seriously, their whole country, USA has almost 1billion IPs) was shut down for a long time recently. Things are moving! Speculate! Speculate! Speculate!
- mikehotel 12y ago
  In a data breach this large, the confidential data itself can be a source of new information. https://www.riskbasedsecurity.com/2014/12/a-breakdown-and-analysis-of-the-december-2014-sony-hack https://www.riskbasedsecurity.com/2014/12/a-breakdown-and-an... has a decent overview of what you may have missed if you are only paying attention to FBI or SPE press releases.
vezzy-fnord 12y ago
Moreover, there's nothing wrong with proposing conspiracies, given that clandestine operations have been sort of essential throughout world history. Once they become historical fact though, people simply cease thinking of them as "conspiracies" due to the tainted meanings the word evokes. It's really strange, actually. In secondary school history you see a trend of authoritarianism being the most widespread form of governmental structure, yet for some reason we've been told to accept that during the past few decades the world leaders all had a change of heart and first world governments suddenly became all benevolent. Or maybe it's a US-specific thing related to their sense of exceptionalism.

aqme28 12y ago

I take the complete opposite approach. It sounds more like a conspiracy theory to take the FBI's word on this without significant evidence. Just like with any other alleged crime, the skeptical view (innocent until proven guilty) is best.

Xeoncross 12y ago
you have no right to question the question
mikeash 12y ago
The skeptical view is to say "I don't know" until you have enough evidence to know. Innocent until proven guilty is how the courts operate, it's not a guide to skepticism. The skeptic's reaction to an alleged crime without sufficient evidence to prove innocence or guilt should be, "I don't know." Many (most? all?) of the contrarians on this issue are basically saying, the FBI can't be trusted, and they are wrong. That's not skepticism, that's just being contrary.

dragontamer 12y ago

The reason to not buy the claim is that tracking down hackers is an extremely difficult task. North Korea is a "best bet" to report, much like the previous "Google Hacks" were probably China. But in the world of hacking, you never really know.

ivanca 12y ago

The FBI having "proof" that they can't disclose is just as good as nothing, you can pretty much do any claim as long as you can just say that you can't disclose all information. Please, this is the same people who said Iraq had nuclear guns, a much more serious claim.

pdabbadabba 12y ago

I think it's a bit hyperbolic to color the recent HN posts as "conspiracy theories." While I don't find them persuasive, the posts I've read have simply been honest attempts to evaluate the public claims implicating North Korea. What I do find interesting and objectionable, though, is that these articles have, in my view, been of uncharacteristically low quality. Ironically, it would seem that the collective HN wisdom and skepticism becomes dormant when confronted with an article seeming to confirm their antecedent skepticism towards the U.S. government.

k-mcgrady 12y ago
I know I was being hyperbolic. You nailed it in your second paragraph - that's my problem. Several posts per day regurgitating what was posted yesterday. Until we have more information from Sony, the FBI, or the hackers I wouldn't mind not seeing these posts from 'experts'. Trust me, I'm always skeptical of the Us government. I don't know whether to believe them or not in this instance. But these posts are just getting irritating.