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At one of the coffee shops local to me works a woman who was encouraged into programming as a career. She believed she could do it, did a BSc, worked as a dev

by ruma 12y ago

At one of the coffee shops local to me works a woman who was encouraged into programming as a career. She believed she could do it, did a BSc, worked as a dev for a year, hated it, now works at the coffee shop scratching her head about what to do. My last IT director had a similar experience. He became a business analyst after hating dev for two years, having become a dev by having the prescribed requirements. Programming simply is not for everyone, and telling those people to just practice ignores the fact that they couldn't do so and retain their sanity. I think it's fair that we don't expect people to forego their sanity, and therefore that they won't be able to practice, and therefore that they will never be good programmers.

dragonwriter 12y ago
The authors don't think programming-as-a-career is for everything, they think that programming-as-a-skill is something that, taught properly, is accessible to anyone and has value that extends well beyond programming-as-a-career. The preface to the first edition expressly made this clear, introducing the book as "the first book on programming as the core subject of a liberal arts education", and proceeding to lay out the case for programming as a liberal arts core subject [0]. It specifically notes that "traditional forms of programming are useful for just a few people." (emphasis in original) [0] For that explanation, see "Why Everyone Should Learn to Program", at http://htdp.org/2003-09-26/Book/curriculum-Z-H-2.html http://htdp.org/2003-09-26/Book/curriculum-Z-H-2.html
nixpulvis 12y ago
There is a difference between being able to be good at something, and that thing being what you like to do. Generally they go hand in hand because you are more likely to spend time doing something you like. The statement at the start of the book is just saying that anyone can be good, but it doesn't say everyone will.
- ruma 12y ago
  "There is a difference between being able to be good at something, and that thing being what you like to do." That depends on the degree to which you like or dislike that thing. If you don't like something to the point that you can't stand to pursue the practice that would make you good, then you are not able to become good at it. If you aren't able to practice, then you aren't able to be good. Not everyone will, agreed, but nor can those who can't stand the necessary practice.
dkersten 12y ago
There is a big difference between saying "programming simply is not for everyone" and "not everyone can learn to program". The book is saying that everyone can be good (although like guitar, through practice). That's very different from "everybody will be good" or "everybody will enjoy it" or "programming is for everyone" Sometimes it's hard to know if its for you or not until you've immersed yourself in it for long enough. Unfortunately for the woman you mentioned, this was likely many years of her time. Other people know immediately. Either way it doesn't mean that they couldn't learn or get nothing out of it. You don't have to be a chef for knowing how to cook nice things to be a useful skill to have.
- ruma 12y ago
  "Good programming ... everyone can do it" - you seem to be arguing whether something can be gained - I don't think anyone is arguing that. If good programming requires practice, and some people cannot stand the practice, then they cannot be good programmers. "Good programming ... everyone who likes programming or can stand to do the significant practice can do it." "Crap programming ... everyone can do it."

by ruma 12y ago

dragonwriter 12y ago

The authors don't think programming-as-a-career is for everything, they think that programming-as-a-skill is something that, taught properly, is accessible to anyone and has value that extends well beyond programming-as-a-career. The preface to the first edition expressly made this clear, introducing the book as "the first book on programming as the core subject of a liberal arts education", and proceeding to lay out the case for programming as a liberal arts core subject [0]. It specifically notes that "traditional forms of programming are useful for just a few people." (emphasis in original) [0] For that explanation, see "Why Everyone Should Learn to Program", at http://htdp.org/2003-09-26/Book/curriculum-Z-H-2.html http://htdp.org/2003-09-26/Book/curriculum-Z-H-2.html

nixpulvis 12y ago

There is a difference between being able to be good at something, and that thing being what you like to do. Generally they go hand in hand because you are more likely to spend time doing something you like. The statement at the start of the book is just saying that anyone can be good, but it doesn't say everyone will.

ruma 12y ago
"There is a difference between being able to be good at something, and that thing being what you like to do." That depends on the degree to which you like or dislike that thing. If you don't like something to the point that you can't stand to pursue the practice that would make you good, then you are not able to become good at it. If you aren't able to practice, then you aren't able to be good. Not everyone will, agreed, but nor can those who can't stand the necessary practice.

dkersten 12y ago

There is a big difference between saying "programming simply is not for everyone" and "not everyone can learn to program". The book is saying that everyone can be good (although like guitar, through practice). That's very different from "everybody will be good" or "everybody will enjoy it" or "programming is for everyone" Sometimes it's hard to know if its for you or not until you've immersed yourself in it for long enough. Unfortunately for the woman you mentioned, this was likely many years of her time. Other people know immediately. Either way it doesn't mean that they couldn't learn or get nothing out of it. You don't have to be a chef for knowing how to cook nice things to be a useful skill to have.

ruma 12y ago
"Good programming ... everyone can do it" - you seem to be arguing whether something can be gained - I don't think anyone is arguing that. If good programming requires practice, and some people cannot stand the practice, then they cannot be good programmers. "Good programming ... everyone who likes programming or can stand to do the significant practice can do it." "Crap programming ... everyone can do it."