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I have a hard time reconciling the idea that we need more STEM graduates with the difficulty that actual STEM graduates have finding work in their fields. Even

I have a hard time reconciling the idea that we need more STEM graduates with the difficulty that actual STEM graduates have finding work in their fields. Even if it's part time work while pursuing a PhD, if there was anything resembling a real shortage, these things wouldn't happen. And it's not a rare story.

melling 12y ago
I thought the argument for increasing the number of H-1B visas is that we need more technology people? The current limit is 65,000 people every year, and the claim is that's too low.
- gaius 12y ago
  There is a shortage... Of tech workers willing to indenture themselves, or to work for a fraction of what they're worth. But the real elephant in the corner of the room is ageism.
  - speeder 12y ago
    ageism how? I am 27 (or I will be in some hours... right now 26, in some hours 27). I am jobless for a while, and in my country, industry research showed that the companies are hiring less and less people in their 20s and hiring more people that are 50+ Any position I see with reasonable pay (ie: pay more than my rent + food) requires 20 years of experience+ since I am 27 I cannot have 20 years of experience (I learned to code at 6, but I don't got my first job at 7 :P)
    - gaius 12y ago
      Which country? I'm guessing not UK or US.
      - speeder 12y ago
        Brazil. But general stats on US jobs (not the TI industry stats) also show the same pattern.
colechristensen 12y ago
We don't need more STEM graduates, we need economic incentives for STEM graduates including companies actually willing to take on and train green grads (everything requries a few years of very specific experience these days), willing to pay them good wages for part time work, willing to pay them good wages at all... etc. etc. The problem is managers aren't scientists, few companies care about pure research and long term benefits coming from it, and nobody is willing to spend effort and resources training inexperienced average graduates any more. It is also, in many ways, too easy to get a STEM degree by learning how to be a good University student as opposed to learning your subject well. The core problem is university needs to be something special and uncommon, not something necessary. Most jobs have little to do with the University training that comes with them and there's not the budget for 1/3 of the population to do science.
- HarryHirsch 12y ago
  Nowadays the economic incentives are the other way around. It used to be that pharmaceutical companies did everything in-house, from early discovery to clinical testing, and Central Research did discovery and lead optimization. That system provided stability for the employees. Compare that to the pharmco carousel that you can see in action today in Boston and San Diego. The major players are IP brokers that buy startups with promising compounds (good if you are a lawyer or in marketing), but the science is done by university startups which are either bought out or fail, and the number of very capable people on postdocs (because they are between startups) is plain staggering. Try putting your kids through college doing that. Is anyone surprised that I'm very suspicious of anyone preaching the startup gospel? They are inevitably venture capitalists or marketeers, or fresh out of college and still very green.
  - chrisseaton 12y ago
    "the number of very capable people on postdocs ... is plain staggering" What's wrong with doing a postdoc? I'm in the UK, but here a postdoc is a normal part of the science career path. It pays reasonably well for academia and is a first step towards being a lecturer (assistant professor).
icebraining 12y ago
Isn't it funny how we chastise companies for treating workers like replaceable cogs, and then we do the same in these discussions? If I need an expert in neurobiology, a glut of physics majors is unlikely to be helpful.
- waterlesscloud 12y ago
  Then we should be saying we need more neurobiology grads. But what's being said is we need more STEM grads. 74% of STEM grads don't work in their fields. That's not a small percentage. http://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2014/cb14-130.html http://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2014/cb14-130....
  - vizeroth 12y ago
    The first failure of STEM education: statistics. 1. It says they don't work in STEM fields, not just their fields. My guess would be that the percentage would be much higher for people who don't work in their field, but in many cases it's still just a statistic. 2. There is no path for job growth in many STEM fields except out of STEM and into management. Most people staying in a STEM job for 20+ years find themselves under pressure to move to management, in part because it is somehow easier for companies to pay the salary in middle management than in STEM for someone with a lot of time in the field. Still, some people just change their minds, or actually want to work in business or some field considered non-STEM, but do their undergraduate work in STEM. Additionally, many STEM fields require a level of specialization that usually requires an advanced degree or long-term work in the field to acquire that specialized knowledge. Many people get discouraged by this when they see their student debt and their lack of employment options after getting a Bachelor's degree, so, if they continue in higher education at all, they look at getting a degree in something else (like an MBA).
- Dewie 12y ago
  The reason for that was that it was the industry that framed the shortage in that way, to begin with.
rayiner 12y ago
To be fair, this was a little college town and I don't imagine it's easy to find any sort of physics-related job that has much schedule flexibility.
morgante 12y ago
The problem is one of miscommunication between tech and media/government. There is definitely a shortage of developers, a shortage which tech companies have regularly been complaining about. Unfortunately, politicians and journalists just hear "we need more nerds" so assume there is a STEM shortage (in their non-technical minds, nerds are all equivalent). Thus the broad and pointless push for STEM graduates when what's really needed is a specific subsection of Technology.
- aidanhs 12y ago
  > There is definitely a shortage of developers Even this isn't quite true - I'd qualify 'developers' with 'good'. There are a lot of average/bad developers out there and companies don't really want to hire them...but many don't have a huge pool of candidates like Facebook and Google.
- bicknergseng 12y ago
  I wouldn't even say we have a shortage of "good developers." Like commenters pointed out a few days ago on the "how to make it in the tech mecca" post, there is a shortage of "ideal" developers willing to work for less and a strong employer willingness to pass on 100 or 1000 "ok" or "good" candidates that they could train in favor of that "ideal" candidate. So I would argue that it's a problem with an asymmetrical job marketplace and poor long term decision making on the part of employers.
  - philwelch 12y ago
    Training doesn't always turn an "ok" or "good" candidate into a great one. The requirement is for developers. Either junior developers or senior developers. Hiring a trainee actually costs you developer time in the short run, for no guaranteed output in the long run as many of the trainees will just wash out. Besides, all you need is some books and open source software and you can train yourself, at least to the level that you're hirable. OK, some things you have to learn from experience in ways that are hard to accomplish outside of working for a big company (large scale distributed systems) but most of the companies that have large scale distributed systems are willing to hire straight out of college and, effectively, train them! So, the rational thing to do is to let the "ok" developers develop their own skills and then hire the ones that end up being good. But then, I don't think the standard is unreasonably high in the first place.
NoMoreNicksLeft 12y ago
There is no fixed number of STEM jobs... and it's probably true that the dearth of job candidates actually reduces the number in the long run. If you can't find the workers you need, in the long term you shift strategy to that which doesn't require them. After all, the United States isn't the only place to find them.
fiatmoney 12y ago
Maybe because "STEM" isn't a thing that exists. "Oh, we're looking to hire a virologist. Or a algebreic geometer. Mechanical engineer maybe. Something like that."
- judk 12y ago
  That's pretty much Google's recruiting philosophy you quoted.

melling 12y ago

I thought the argument for increasing the number of H-1B visas is that we need more technology people? The current limit is 65,000 people every year, and the claim is that's too low.

gaius 12y ago
There is a shortage... Of tech workers willing to indenture themselves, or to work for a fraction of what they're worth. But the real elephant in the corner of the room is ageism.
- speeder 12y ago
  ageism how? I am 27 (or I will be in some hours... right now 26, in some hours 27). I am jobless for a while, and in my country, industry research showed that the companies are hiring less and less people in their 20s and hiring more people that are 50+ Any position I see with reasonable pay (ie: pay more than my rent + food) requires 20 years of experience+ since I am 27 I cannot have 20 years of experience (I learned to code at 6, but I don't got my first job at 7 :P)
  - gaius 12y ago
    Which country? I'm guessing not UK or US.
    - speeder 12y ago
      Brazil. But general stats on US jobs (not the TI industry stats) also show the same pattern.

colechristensen 12y ago

We don't need more STEM graduates, we need economic incentives for STEM graduates including companies actually willing to take on and train green grads (everything requries a few years of very specific experience these days), willing to pay them good wages for part time work, willing to pay them good wages at all... etc. etc. The problem is managers aren't scientists, few companies care about pure research and long term benefits coming from it, and nobody is willing to spend effort and resources training inexperienced average graduates any more. It is also, in many ways, too easy to get a STEM degree by learning how to be a good University student as opposed to learning your subject well. The core problem is university needs to be something special and uncommon, not something necessary. Most jobs have little to do with the University training that comes with them and there's not the budget for 1/3 of the population to do science.

HarryHirsch 12y ago
Nowadays the economic incentives are the other way around. It used to be that pharmaceutical companies did everything in-house, from early discovery to clinical testing, and Central Research did discovery and lead optimization. That system provided stability for the employees. Compare that to the pharmco carousel that you can see in action today in Boston and San Diego. The major players are IP brokers that buy startups with promising compounds (good if you are a lawyer or in marketing), but the science is done by university startups which are either bought out or fail, and the number of very capable people on postdocs (because they are between startups) is plain staggering. Try putting your kids through college doing that. Is anyone surprised that I'm very suspicious of anyone preaching the startup gospel? They are inevitably venture capitalists or marketeers, or fresh out of college and still very green.
- chrisseaton 12y ago
  "the number of very capable people on postdocs ... is plain staggering" What's wrong with doing a postdoc? I'm in the UK, but here a postdoc is a normal part of the science career path. It pays reasonably well for academia and is a first step towards being a lecturer (assistant professor).

icebraining 12y ago

Isn't it funny how we chastise companies for treating workers like replaceable cogs, and then we do the same in these discussions? If I need an expert in neurobiology, a glut of physics majors is unlikely to be helpful.

waterlesscloud 12y ago
Then we should be saying we need more neurobiology grads. But what's being said is we need more STEM grads. 74% of STEM grads don't work in their fields. That's not a small percentage. http://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2014/cb14-130.html http://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2014/cb14-130....
- vizeroth 12y ago
  The first failure of STEM education: statistics. 1. It says they don't work in STEM fields, not just their fields. My guess would be that the percentage would be much higher for people who don't work in their field, but in many cases it's still just a statistic. 2. There is no path for job growth in many STEM fields except out of STEM and into management. Most people staying in a STEM job for 20+ years find themselves under pressure to move to management, in part because it is somehow easier for companies to pay the salary in middle management than in STEM for someone with a lot of time in the field. Still, some people just change their minds, or actually want to work in business or some field considered non-STEM, but do their undergraduate work in STEM. Additionally, many STEM fields require a level of specialization that usually requires an advanced degree or long-term work in the field to acquire that specialized knowledge. Many people get discouraged by this when they see their student debt and their lack of employment options after getting a Bachelor's degree, so, if they continue in higher education at all, they look at getting a degree in something else (like an MBA).
Dewie 12y ago
The reason for that was that it was the industry that framed the shortage in that way, to begin with.

rayiner 12y ago

To be fair, this was a little college town and I don't imagine it's easy to find any sort of physics-related job that has much schedule flexibility.

morgante 12y ago

The problem is one of miscommunication between tech and media/government. There is definitely a shortage of developers, a shortage which tech companies have regularly been complaining about. Unfortunately, politicians and journalists just hear "we need more nerds" so assume there is a STEM shortage (in their non-technical minds, nerds are all equivalent). Thus the broad and pointless push for STEM graduates when what's really needed is a specific subsection of Technology.

aidanhs 12y ago
> There is definitely a shortage of developers Even this isn't quite true - I'd qualify 'developers' with 'good'. There are a lot of average/bad developers out there and companies don't really want to hire them...but many don't have a huge pool of candidates like Facebook and Google.
bicknergseng 12y ago
I wouldn't even say we have a shortage of "good developers." Like commenters pointed out a few days ago on the "how to make it in the tech mecca" post, there is a shortage of "ideal" developers willing to work for less and a strong employer willingness to pass on 100 or 1000 "ok" or "good" candidates that they could train in favor of that "ideal" candidate. So I would argue that it's a problem with an asymmetrical job marketplace and poor long term decision making on the part of employers.
- philwelch 12y ago
  Training doesn't always turn an "ok" or "good" candidate into a great one. The requirement is for developers. Either junior developers or senior developers. Hiring a trainee actually costs you developer time in the short run, for no guaranteed output in the long run as many of the trainees will just wash out. Besides, all you need is some books and open source software and you can train yourself, at least to the level that you're hirable. OK, some things you have to learn from experience in ways that are hard to accomplish outside of working for a big company (large scale distributed systems) but most of the companies that have large scale distributed systems are willing to hire straight out of college and, effectively, train them! So, the rational thing to do is to let the "ok" developers develop their own skills and then hire the ones that end up being good. But then, I don't think the standard is unreasonably high in the first place.

NoMoreNicksLeft 12y ago

There is no fixed number of STEM jobs... and it's probably true that the dearth of job candidates actually reduces the number in the long run. If you can't find the workers you need, in the long term you shift strategy to that which doesn't require them. After all, the United States isn't the only place to find them.

fiatmoney 12y ago

Maybe because "STEM" isn't a thing that exists. "Oh, we're looking to hire a virologist. Or a algebreic geometer. Mechanical engineer maybe. Something like that."

judk 12y ago
That's pretty much Google's recruiting philosophy you quoted.