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The cynic in me would probably ascribe actions to tax Chinese solar panels as small steps towards banning and slowing the adaption of clean energy generation.

The cynic in me would probably ascribe actions to tax Chinese solar panels as small steps towards banning and slowing the adaption of clean energy generation. Because the alternative is just too stupid to consider. Making solar panels as they exist today is 1) a commodity business and 2) very, very, very simple. Surely no one would be stupid enough to believe that US manufacturing could be cost-competitive with China in manufacturing a product where the sole complexity lies in sourcing high purity silicon? There aren't even any manufacturing jobs involved here, it's probably 100% automated. Some argue that China is subsidizing chinese solar panel manufacturers and thereby distorting the market. But then that's not even necessary, as explained nobody would be insanse enough to try and rival them by manufacturing a commodity in the US when you would have to ship the silicon over from China first. So the effect chinese solar subsidies are having is making solar panels extremely cheap for Americans, transforming the way the US generates energy. They're financing our switch to clean energy.

zo1 12y ago
>"So the effect chinese solar subsidies are having is making solar panels extremely cheap for Americans, transforming the way the US generates energy. They're financing our switch to clean energy." And then the US government goes ahead and forces everyone in the country to pay more for something they could have gotten cheaper for whatever reason. Is no one disturbed by this?
- icegreentea 12y ago
  Your statement is pretty much a summary of taxation in general... so no, I don't think many people are really disturbed about that.
  - zo1 12y ago
    Do you think that if they had a choice, a real one, that they would be fine with it? Perhaps, if individuals were to have more say in what, where or how much of there taxed money gets spent on. Or, if to go even further, they had the a real choice in whether or not they even gave money to the state?
Symmetry 12y ago
No need to invoke hidden conspiracies trying to fight clean energy when the public conspiracies are sufficient explanation. Public Choice Thoery[1] says that when a potential regulation provides great benefit to a small group of people and a small detriment to everyone else it will tend to be adopted. The Solar Energy Industries Association's members and employees will vote against the reelection of politicians who allow their livelihood to be destroyed but the vast majority of the millions of people who see their electric bills go up won't even know why and those who do probably have issues they consider more important to base their votes on. Of course maybe the Coalition for Affordable Solar Energy will be able to convince enough people that they should care to influence policy but the odds are stacked against them. Especially since the default is that we protect every industry against "unfair competition" unless a special exception is made. Maybe things will change under the next administration? You might remember Obama making a lot of noise about "green jobs" for Americans so a future Republican president might feel that American solar manufacturers are going to be against him no matter what and so remove the import barriers. But then again the people who care about lowering the barriers are also traditionally aligned against the Republicans so I'm not sure the politics works out. [1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_choice http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_choice
- AnthonyMouse 12y ago
  > The Solar Energy Industries Association The people who make solar panels in the US are a preposterously small constituency. The thing to remember is that cheap Chinese solar panels don't just compete with less-cheap American solar panels, they also compete with oil, coal and every other source of generating electricity. Fossil fuel companies fight the construction of nuclear plants by claiming we should be building solar instead, because they know if they prevent nuclear then solar isn't cost competitive with fossil fuels. Then they make sure solar isn't cost competitive by doing things like this. And if that doesn't work they do what OPEC has been doing recently and increase production so that fossil fuel prices fall. It's not a "conspiracy" -- it's companies and OPEC-member governments acting in their own rational self-interest. (If you can call ignoring climate change rational.)
Aloisius 12y ago
> Some argue that China is subsidizing chinese solar panel manufacturers and thereby distorting the market. But then that's not even necessary, as explained nobody would be insanse enough to try and rival them by manufacturing a commodity in the US when you would have to ship the silicon over from China first. Well considering the vast majority of polysilicon is made outside of China and the US itself is actually one of the major producers of it, I don't see why you'd have to ship it out of China first. Also exactly why would US automated commodity manufacturing not be cost-competitive with China? We produce a huge amount of commodities. They compete just fine with the Chinese. And more importantly, are you trying to imply that the commodities businesses are somehow not valuable and we should just not have dumping laws?

zo1 12y ago

>"So the effect chinese solar subsidies are having is making solar panels extremely cheap for Americans, transforming the way the US generates energy. They're financing our switch to clean energy." And then the US government goes ahead and forces everyone in the country to pay more for something they could have gotten cheaper for whatever reason. Is no one disturbed by this?

icegreentea 12y ago
Your statement is pretty much a summary of taxation in general... so no, I don't think many people are really disturbed about that.
- zo1 12y ago
  Do you think that if they had a choice, a real one, that they would be fine with it? Perhaps, if individuals were to have more say in what, where or how much of there taxed money gets spent on. Or, if to go even further, they had the a real choice in whether or not they even gave money to the state?

Symmetry 12y ago

No need to invoke hidden conspiracies trying to fight clean energy when the public conspiracies are sufficient explanation. Public Choice Thoery[1] says that when a potential regulation provides great benefit to a small group of people and a small detriment to everyone else it will tend to be adopted. The Solar Energy Industries Association's members and employees will vote against the reelection of politicians who allow their livelihood to be destroyed but the vast majority of the millions of people who see their electric bills go up won't even know why and those who do probably have issues they consider more important to base their votes on. Of course maybe the Coalition for Affordable Solar Energy will be able to convince enough people that they should care to influence policy but the odds are stacked against them. Especially since the default is that we protect every industry against "unfair competition" unless a special exception is made. Maybe things will change under the next administration? You might remember Obama making a lot of noise about "green jobs" for Americans so a future Republican president might feel that American solar manufacturers are going to be against him no matter what and so remove the import barriers. But then again the people who care about lowering the barriers are also traditionally aligned against the Republicans so I'm not sure the politics works out. [1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_choice http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_choice

AnthonyMouse 12y ago
> The Solar Energy Industries Association The people who make solar panels in the US are a preposterously small constituency. The thing to remember is that cheap Chinese solar panels don't just compete with less-cheap American solar panels, they also compete with oil, coal and every other source of generating electricity. Fossil fuel companies fight the construction of nuclear plants by claiming we should be building solar instead, because they know if they prevent nuclear then solar isn't cost competitive with fossil fuels. Then they make sure solar isn't cost competitive by doing things like this. And if that doesn't work they do what OPEC has been doing recently and increase production so that fossil fuel prices fall. It's not a "conspiracy" -- it's companies and OPEC-member governments acting in their own rational self-interest. (If you can call ignoring climate change rational.)

Aloisius 12y ago

> Some argue that China is subsidizing chinese solar panel manufacturers and thereby distorting the market. But then that's not even necessary, as explained nobody would be insanse enough to try and rival them by manufacturing a commodity in the US when you would have to ship the silicon over from China first. Well considering the vast majority of polysilicon is made outside of China and the US itself is actually one of the major producers of it, I don't see why you'd have to ship it out of China first. Also exactly why would US automated commodity manufacturing not be cost-competitive with China? We produce a huge amount of commodities. They compete just fine with the Chinese. And more importantly, are you trying to imply that the commodities businesses are somehow not valuable and we should just not have dumping laws?