5 ms·

I want to patrol my own streets like I want to grow my own food, or supply my own home energy. No thanks. People who provide these services do a better job tha

by andyl 12y ago

I want to patrol my own streets like I want to grow my own food, or supply my own home energy. No thanks. People who provide these services do a better job than I ever will. I'm thankful that they are there, so I can focus all my energy on writing software.

ossreality 12y ago
Read the article you loser.
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]
SwellJoe 12y ago
The article makes several suggestions, and only one of them is "community patrols".
- akira2501 12y ago
  Yes, but it starts with the premise that these are alternatives. If anything, I think these are things that are good in _addition_ to our current system, but as a replacement I think it's a bit of a pipe dream. Further, I take issue with the whole notion of the United States being a society "dominated by the police." It looks like we have just the right amount[1], so it seems to me that the issue is lack of training, accountability and open reporting combined with effective police review that are likely to be our problems. 1: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_number_of_police_officers http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_number_of_...
  - SwellJoe 12y ago
    And, yet, our police seem to be extraordinarily effective at imprisoning people, comparatively speaking. If we have the right amount of police (at their current efficiency), does that mean we have the right amount of people in prison? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarcera...
    - akira2501 12y ago
      I don't mean to be flip, but police do not have the power to imprison people; it's Juries and Judges do that.
      - SwellJoe 12y ago
        That's part of it, and the laws are part of it, too. But, I believe policing accounts for a significant portion of that disparity between the US and other developed, democratic-ish, nations. Here's why I believe that: Black folks are arrested at a rate of 2.5 times, or more, that of white folks, despite committing crimes at about the same rate as white folks (actually, for some classes of crime, such as marijuana use, whites commit crime at a higher rate). This tells me that police exercise discretion when making arrests. And, were they to exercise that discretion equally across races, there would be either a lot fewer or a lot more arrests, and a lot fewer or a lot more people being imprisoned. In short, to put it into language that HN folks will understand, it is like a sales funnel. Police are an early stage in the funnel for filling prisons, and every stage in the funnel plays a role in the prison industrial complex. Sources on the 2.5, or higher, number (any time race comes up as a factor, someone will challenge it...so, preemptive response): http://www.thenation.com/article/176915/scandal-racist-marijuana-arrests-and-what-do-about-it http://www.thenation.com/article/176915/scandal-racist-marij... http://atlantablackstar.com/2014/11/20/usa-today-finds-black-people-arrested-us-much-higher-rates-whites-paper-wont-call-racism/ http://atlantablackstar.com/2014/11/20/usa-today-finds-black... http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/05/us/us-race-marijuana-arrests/index.html http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/05/us/us-race-marijuana-arrests/i... http://www.hrw.org/news/2009/03/02/us-drug-arrests-skewed-race http://www.hrw.org/news/2009/03/02/us-drug-arrests-skewed-ra...
- dclowd9901 12y ago
  Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't police start as community patrols, then were legitimized when they had to start employing deadly force in order to keep other more organized and dangerous groups at bay? (mobs, gangs, etc)
  - SwellJoe 12y ago
    As I understand it, in the United States, policing was performed originally by an elected Sheriff. You would need to go back to the medieval period, I guess, or somewhere other than the western world, to find community patrols as a common form of policing practiced in anything like the modern world. There is some argument to be made that police have evolved alongside the concept of property, in that the role of police has historically been defense of property (where property often included people), and that doesn't always coincide with concern for human lives. But, I'd rather not get too distracted by what policing looked like hundreds of years ago. What does it look like today? And, is that the best way to protect people from those dangerous groups you speak of (mobs, gangs, etc.)? I honestly don't believe it is. The budgets of major city police forces are absurd, compared to budgets for mental health, rehabilitation, addiction recovery, education, poverty reduction, etc. And, those budgets are padded to the tune of millions of dollars a year from federal sources, including heavily subsidized military equipment (which is a major contributor to the militarization of police forces). So, how would it affect your opinion on this issue for police to have started as community patrols but turned into something else? Do you assume that because someone (in a pre-democratic era) decided that community patrols were not as effective as appointed police that we should continue to do it the way it's been done for all those years? Is history the right source of inspiration when it comes to use of force?
    - dclowd9901 12y ago
      Don't get me wrong. I've got no answers. But I think it's a bit naïve to believe that no one, criminal or otherwise, would fill the power void should an organized and powerful police force cease to exist. In countries with corrupt or minimal police force, we see rampant corruption and gangs/terrorist groups in control. It's not like there aren't examples to draw from here.

by andyl 12y ago

ossreality 12y ago

Read the article you loser.

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]

SwellJoe 12y ago

The article makes several suggestions, and only one of them is "community patrols".

akira2501 12y ago
Yes, but it starts with the premise that these are alternatives. If anything, I think these are things that are good in _addition_ to our current system, but as a replacement I think it's a bit of a pipe dream. Further, I take issue with the whole notion of the United States being a society "dominated by the police." It looks like we have just the right amount[1], so it seems to me that the issue is lack of training, accountability and open reporting combined with effective police review that are likely to be our problems. 1: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_number_of_police_officers http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_number_of_...
- SwellJoe 12y ago
  And, yet, our police seem to be extraordinarily effective at imprisoning people, comparatively speaking. If we have the right amount of police (at their current efficiency), does that mean we have the right amount of people in prison? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarcera...
  - akira2501 12y ago
    I don't mean to be flip, but police do not have the power to imprison people; it's Juries and Judges do that.
    - SwellJoe 12y ago
      That's part of it, and the laws are part of it, too. But, I believe policing accounts for a significant portion of that disparity between the US and other developed, democratic-ish, nations. Here's why I believe that: Black folks are arrested at a rate of 2.5 times, or more, that of white folks, despite committing crimes at about the same rate as white folks (actually, for some classes of crime, such as marijuana use, whites commit crime at a higher rate). This tells me that police exercise discretion when making arrests. And, were they to exercise that discretion equally across races, there would be either a lot fewer or a lot more arrests, and a lot fewer or a lot more people being imprisoned. In short, to put it into language that HN folks will understand, it is like a sales funnel. Police are an early stage in the funnel for filling prisons, and every stage in the funnel plays a role in the prison industrial complex. Sources on the 2.5, or higher, number (any time race comes up as a factor, someone will challenge it...so, preemptive response): http://www.thenation.com/article/176915/scandal-racist-marijuana-arrests-and-what-do-about-it http://www.thenation.com/article/176915/scandal-racist-marij... http://atlantablackstar.com/2014/11/20/usa-today-finds-black-people-arrested-us-much-higher-rates-whites-paper-wont-call-racism/ http://atlantablackstar.com/2014/11/20/usa-today-finds-black... http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/05/us/us-race-marijuana-arrests/index.html http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/05/us/us-race-marijuana-arrests/i... http://www.hrw.org/news/2009/03/02/us-drug-arrests-skewed-race http://www.hrw.org/news/2009/03/02/us-drug-arrests-skewed-ra...
dclowd9901 12y ago
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't police start as community patrols, then were legitimized when they had to start employing deadly force in order to keep other more organized and dangerous groups at bay? (mobs, gangs, etc)
- SwellJoe 12y ago
  As I understand it, in the United States, policing was performed originally by an elected Sheriff. You would need to go back to the medieval period, I guess, or somewhere other than the western world, to find community patrols as a common form of policing practiced in anything like the modern world. There is some argument to be made that police have evolved alongside the concept of property, in that the role of police has historically been defense of property (where property often included people), and that doesn't always coincide with concern for human lives. But, I'd rather not get too distracted by what policing looked like hundreds of years ago. What does it look like today? And, is that the best way to protect people from those dangerous groups you speak of (mobs, gangs, etc.)? I honestly don't believe it is. The budgets of major city police forces are absurd, compared to budgets for mental health, rehabilitation, addiction recovery, education, poverty reduction, etc. And, those budgets are padded to the tune of millions of dollars a year from federal sources, including heavily subsidized military equipment (which is a major contributor to the militarization of police forces). So, how would it affect your opinion on this issue for police to have started as community patrols but turned into something else? Do you assume that because someone (in a pre-democratic era) decided that community patrols were not as effective as appointed police that we should continue to do it the way it's been done for all those years? Is history the right source of inspiration when it comes to use of force?
  - dclowd9901 12y ago
    Don't get me wrong. I've got no answers. But I think it's a bit naïve to believe that no one, criminal or otherwise, would fill the power void should an organized and powerful police force cease to exist. In countries with corrupt or minimal police force, we see rampant corruption and gangs/terrorist groups in control. It's not like there aren't examples to draw from here.