6 ms·

rather than giving Cindy the quote which she asked for, I should have asked Cindy to hop on a quick call with me to discuss how they were planning to use Appoin

rather than giving Cindy the quote which she asked for, I should have asked Cindy to hop on a quick call with me to discuss how they were planning to use Appointment Reminder I get this all the time when looking for vendors for various things and have to say I usually do an internal eye-roll when it comes up - sometimes I just want a rough quote in an email that I can look at when I get the chance. Most recently we were looking at some load testing tool and I had to sit through a sales call only to find out the cost was ten times what we were prepared to pay. I had zero special requirements so why that price couldn't have been emailed is beyond me. I understand in some cases like this it might be useful to have a call, I just feel I'm getting the sales BS when it happens to me.

patio11 12y ago
I'm on your side here with regards to that, but this story is exactly why your vendor can't do that to you. You know you have no special requirements. They don't know you have no special requirements. They also don't know whether you're serious yet. For better or worse, asking you to put something on your calendar and show up to it is a great way to verify whether you're serious or not: if you're not willing to make yourself available for a phone call, it is possible you'd be able to organize your company to pay $10k for software but that isn't the way I'll bet. I regretfully have years of anecdata on the close rate of doing things the geek-approved way versus the close rate when I get on the phone with somebody and it, ahem, is not a close call.
- lmorris84 12y ago
  In the case I mentioned I wasn't serious at all - I was just putting feelers out and trying to gauge pricing across a few different vendors. A call at this point is probably wasting my time and theirs. For me, the stage after finding out a standard price is to perhaps have a call and determine if my requirements match up to the product. I guess it also depends on the size of the company, type of software etc. If the company has trial versions then it's more likely the person buying knows what it can do etc. As a hard example, I go to jprofiler's website[1] and can order there and then, no messing around. I go to neotys[2] and it's the sales induced hell I mentioned above. [1] https://www.ej-technologies.com/buy/jprofiler/select https://www.ej-technologies.com/buy/jprofiler/select [2] http://www.neotys.com/product/neoload-licenses.html http://www.neotys.com/product/neoload-licenses.html
  - sillysaurus3 12y ago
    It sounded like Patrick's point was that vendors who force you onto the phone are vendors who will win, if you measure "win" as "more sales that close, with a higher price." But it depends on the business and the product, of course.
  - danielvinson 12y ago
    "A call at this point is probably wasting my time and theirs." Most salespeople spend countless hours of time with potential customers who don't purchase - it is certainly worth their time if there is even a slight chance that you will consider the product in the distant future. You are definitely NOT wasting their time.
    - douche 12y ago
      It's certainly wasting your time... It drives me nuts when I download a trial version of some software tool to evaluate and get phone calls from sales reps before the day is over. Calm down, I haven't had time to even try it yet...
      - raminassemi 12y ago
        From the software vendors' perspective, it makes good business sense to call you asap, see: http://blog.close.io/why-you-need-to-call-every-signup-user-within-5 http://blog.close.io/why-you-need-to-call-every-signup-user-... From a customer perspective, ideally that call will help you to save time by: a) figuring out faster if this software is right for you or not b) helping you to learn how to use it the best way possible c) setting this up so you make the most out of your trial. I'd rather take objection with bad sales calls, not with the fact that they call on the same day.
  - yourapostasy 12y ago
    This is a clash of cultures: hacker culture and sales culture. patio11 has it exactly right. The next time you find yourself in the situation of wanting a quick number, try it this way and you might get better results. When you make contact with the sales organization, communicate: 1. You have no idea what these things really cost. 2. You need just a non-binding, ballpark budgetary figure to the nearest $10K (or nearest $1K, or nearest $100) to find out if you can put it up for the budget. 3. You are not the purchasing decision maker, but do have influence (see below for variations). 4. A general idea of scope: how many users, seats, whether you are a DIY shop or you want to retain professional services for those things that need to be deployed, or whatever else you think will help the sales rep give you a rough sizing. The vast majority of participants at HN do not have budgetary signing authority in the $50K+ USD range for a single purchase, and are not familiar with how the sales process works at this level. Indeed, many simply have no purchasing authority whatsoever, but do have influence ("my boss generally buys whatever I tell him to buy"). No offense, but the sales people don't want to really deal with you; they want to work with the people who can make a purchase decision. If you really do have purchasing authority, spell it out ("I can sign for the purchase", or "I sign for departmental purchases but it has to be approved by my division manager if it is above $X thousand", etc.). Please don't lie about it if you don't have purchasing decision making power. In these days of ever-improving CRM systems, that simply hurts your co-workers when/if they contact the vendor again. The sales teams everywhere are getting increasingly better at remembering (with the help of CRM) companies who pull this stunt, and some are even remembering who told them; they might not drag their feet helping you, but you can be damn sure they're not going to bust their nuts digging through announcement lists and databases to find promotions or push special consideration to give you the best discount possible.
- rmc 12y ago
  > You know you have no special requirements. They don't know you have no special requirements. I presume "The company and the customer have different ideas of 'special requirements'" can also be a factor?
  - hawkice 12y ago
    Customers often have no idea whether they want special requirements before they use it (or, of course, someone who knows what questions to ask can drill down on particulars). There's simply no way to have copy detailed enough to trigger a simulation of their business in their mind perfect enough for them to find every problem they are willing to pay to solve. Your mileage may vary though, my brain may be addled by too much extremely high touch B2B work. :)
- aragot 12y ago
  The eternal high-touch vs low-touch debate... Atlassian's whole sales system is to display the prices upfront and have no rebate. Last time I checked, their competitors (resp. IBM Rational and Microsoft Sharepoint) didn't grow by 35% every year for 10 years in a row. I needed an office for 2 people. With Regus you need to plan a call. I ended up at a coworking space, mildly satisfied with the noise, with a bill 70% higher, but at least I don't have a 90-days commitment and I didn't sit with a salesman. There are number of situations when you dodge providers who are just a dead weight.
  - dublinclontarf 12y ago
    I think it depends on the target customer/client. I as a technical person hate when things are not up front like pricing etc. But then most people are not me, and there must be a reason why businesses continue to do this (better results I would guess).
  - spdustin 12y ago
    And nearly every "high touch" interaction with Microsoft and an enterprise using Confluence ends up converting to SharePoint. Full disclosure: I make my living on SharePoint, and (perhaps ironically in some reader's view) use Confluence and other Atlassian products to manage my business.
    - tbyehl 12y ago
      | And nearly every "high touch" interaction with Microsoft and an enterprise using Confluence ends up converting to SharePoint. Converting, or just ending up with both? I've worked for two companies with both and neither product was ever going to replace the other. As your disclosure suggests, the Atlassian suite fulfills a different set of needs than SharePoint.
      - spdustin 12y ago
        My disclosure is that operating my business doesn't require SharePoint, that's all. I'm not "enterprise", I'm running a small business with one partner, and SharePoint is overkill for us. But your point is well taken. To that point: many of our customers bring up migrating their content from Confluence and the like to SharePoint once they begin using SharePoint as a platform for other apps.
philfreo 12y ago
Many products & services should have clear upfront pricing on their website - no quote needed at all. Once you get into the realm where a quote is needed though (due to complexity of the deal, level of customization, very high price points, legal work, etc.), then Patrick's advice is especially golden.
rrggrr 12y ago
I am happy to give you information (your rough quote) in exchange for information (learning about your need). That is a fair trade because while I can scale my product or service, I cannot scale my time. If I misallocate my time on customers who are not qualified, I starve. You are uncomfortable with this because you are not serious. When you are serious, when there is a real need and real value, this isn't an issue for you.
- hvidgaard 12y ago
  He specifically say "I had zero special requirements", so you should be able to give him an answer in less than 2 min. That's a low cost for potentially cultivating a lead.
  - rrggrr 12y ago
    No. No. No. Successful salespeople get something in return for information they give up. Timeline, budget, application, preferences, payment method, etc. without data a salesperson cannit determine where her time should be spent. Time is her most important commodity.
    - cdcarter 12y ago
      But a customer has no interest or reason to negotiate or bargain with a salesperson for information. They negotiate with a company for a product.
  - rmc 12y ago
    No, he thinks he has zero special requirements. Outside the geekosphere, there are lots of people who think they have no special requirements, but actually want something that's physically impossible. (I'm pretty sure there are people who look at (say) a satnav device and think "It should be able to find me the quickest route between all these 50 points in the city" is not a special requirement.)
- mc808 12y ago
  > customers who are not qualified In other words, "If you have to ask, you can't afford it." That's fine and I will just assume it's true, even if it's not.
ianmcgowan 12y ago
There's a somewhat legitimate case to be made for both points of view here. As a potential customer trying to gauge costs, what's been helpful for me is to ask about license structures and a broad range of per/user, per/server, whatever to make my own order of magnitude estimate. Or you can just come right out and ask "how many zeroes?" Someone like IBM/Oracle will refuse to tell you boo, because they're planning to tailor the quote to match the value delivered. Just kidding, they need to measure your pockets first ;_)
Spooky23 12y ago
On the other hand, when the sales dude sends that quote that you wanted blind without any due dilligence, and you order the wrong crap, what happens? "Boss, these idiots from <insert vendor> don't even know what their product does!"
pbiggar 12y ago
If the vendor doesnt have pricing on the website, they dont sell to people like you. They only sell to people with big money to spend, and you should buy from someone else. If you are buying from someone like AR who _does_ have pricing on the website (https://www.appointmentreminder.org/pricing https://www.appointmentreminder.org/pricing), then you must have a special requirement, and as such you should have the call or you're wasting his time and yours. Generally when people tell you "it depends on what you need" they really do mean it depends on what you need. If you're going to run AR in a hospital for 1000 emergency surgeons, vs your run a 3 person beauty salon. If you're the former, patio11 sending you an email saying "it'll be $x/mo" is meaningless.
- gingerlime 12y ago
  > If you're going to run AR in a hospital for 1000 emergency surgeons, vs your run a 3 person beauty salon As you state earlier, there's some kind of bracketing going that matches certain service providers (saas or otherwise) to businesses. A 3 person beauty salon won't buy Oracle, but a hospital with 1000 emergency surgeons* would. How can AR fit both audiences then? Even if at its core it's the same service, all the other "layers" make it a completely different business. [*] are there any hospitals that big??
  - pbiggar 12y ago
    Sometimes you can service both. GitHub, Heroku, New Relic, CircleCI, are all examples that serve 6 and 7 figure contracts while also supporting tiny 1-person contracts too.
    - gingerlime 12y ago
      Did these companies start doing both or only after getting investment? It's a genuine question, I don't know. I'm guessing you need to reach a certain mass to be able to do real Enterprise sales.
      - patio11 12y ago

patio11 12y ago

I'm on your side here with regards to that, but this story is exactly why your vendor can't do that to you. You know you have no special requirements. They don't know you have no special requirements. They also don't know whether you're serious yet. For better or worse, asking you to put something on your calendar and show up to it is a great way to verify whether you're serious or not: if you're not willing to make yourself available for a phone call, it is possible you'd be able to organize your company to pay $10k for software but that isn't the way I'll bet. I regretfully have years of anecdata on the close rate of doing things the geek-approved way versus the close rate when I get on the phone with somebody and it, ahem, is not a close call.

lmorris84 12y ago
In the case I mentioned I wasn't serious at all - I was just putting feelers out and trying to gauge pricing across a few different vendors. A call at this point is probably wasting my time and theirs. For me, the stage after finding out a standard price is to perhaps have a call and determine if my requirements match up to the product. I guess it also depends on the size of the company, type of software etc. If the company has trial versions then it's more likely the person buying knows what it can do etc. As a hard example, I go to jprofiler's website[1] and can order there and then, no messing around. I go to neotys[2] and it's the sales induced hell I mentioned above. [1] https://www.ej-technologies.com/buy/jprofiler/select https://www.ej-technologies.com/buy/jprofiler/select [2] http://www.neotys.com/product/neoload-licenses.html http://www.neotys.com/product/neoload-licenses.html
- sillysaurus3 12y ago
  It sounded like Patrick's point was that vendors who force you onto the phone are vendors who will win, if you measure "win" as "more sales that close, with a higher price." But it depends on the business and the product, of course.
- danielvinson 12y ago
  "A call at this point is probably wasting my time and theirs." Most salespeople spend countless hours of time with potential customers who don't purchase - it is certainly worth their time if there is even a slight chance that you will consider the product in the distant future. You are definitely NOT wasting their time.
  - douche 12y ago
    It's certainly wasting your time... It drives me nuts when I download a trial version of some software tool to evaluate and get phone calls from sales reps before the day is over. Calm down, I haven't had time to even try it yet...
    - raminassemi 12y ago
      From the software vendors' perspective, it makes good business sense to call you asap, see: http://blog.close.io/why-you-need-to-call-every-signup-user-within-5 http://blog.close.io/why-you-need-to-call-every-signup-user-... From a customer perspective, ideally that call will help you to save time by: a) figuring out faster if this software is right for you or not b) helping you to learn how to use it the best way possible c) setting this up so you make the most out of your trial. I'd rather take objection with bad sales calls, not with the fact that they call on the same day.
- yourapostasy 12y ago
  This is a clash of cultures: hacker culture and sales culture. patio11 has it exactly right. The next time you find yourself in the situation of wanting a quick number, try it this way and you might get better results. When you make contact with the sales organization, communicate: 1. You have no idea what these things really cost. 2. You need just a non-binding, ballpark budgetary figure to the nearest $10K (or nearest $1K, or nearest $100) to find out if you can put it up for the budget. 3. You are not the purchasing decision maker, but do have influence (see below for variations). 4. A general idea of scope: how many users, seats, whether you are a DIY shop or you want to retain professional services for those things that need to be deployed, or whatever else you think will help the sales rep give you a rough sizing. The vast majority of participants at HN do not have budgetary signing authority in the $50K+ USD range for a single purchase, and are not familiar with how the sales process works at this level. Indeed, many simply have no purchasing authority whatsoever, but do have influence ("my boss generally buys whatever I tell him to buy"). No offense, but the sales people don't want to really deal with you; they want to work with the people who can make a purchase decision. If you really do have purchasing authority, spell it out ("I can sign for the purchase", or "I sign for departmental purchases but it has to be approved by my division manager if it is above $X thousand", etc.). Please don't lie about it if you don't have purchasing decision making power. In these days of ever-improving CRM systems, that simply hurts your co-workers when/if they contact the vendor again. The sales teams everywhere are getting increasingly better at remembering (with the help of CRM) companies who pull this stunt, and some are even remembering who told them; they might not drag their feet helping you, but you can be damn sure they're not going to bust their nuts digging through announcement lists and databases to find promotions or push special consideration to give you the best discount possible.
rmc 12y ago
> You know you have no special requirements. They don't know you have no special requirements. I presume "The company and the customer have different ideas of 'special requirements'" can also be a factor?
- hawkice 12y ago
  Customers often have no idea whether they want special requirements before they use it (or, of course, someone who knows what questions to ask can drill down on particulars). There's simply no way to have copy detailed enough to trigger a simulation of their business in their mind perfect enough for them to find every problem they are willing to pay to solve. Your mileage may vary though, my brain may be addled by too much extremely high touch B2B work. :)
aragot 12y ago
The eternal high-touch vs low-touch debate... Atlassian's whole sales system is to display the prices upfront and have no rebate. Last time I checked, their competitors (resp. IBM Rational and Microsoft Sharepoint) didn't grow by 35% every year for 10 years in a row. I needed an office for 2 people. With Regus you need to plan a call. I ended up at a coworking space, mildly satisfied with the noise, with a bill 70% higher, but at least I don't have a 90-days commitment and I didn't sit with a salesman. There are number of situations when you dodge providers who are just a dead weight.
- dublinclontarf 12y ago
  I think it depends on the target customer/client. I as a technical person hate when things are not up front like pricing etc. But then most people are not me, and there must be a reason why businesses continue to do this (better results I would guess).
- spdustin 12y ago
  And nearly every "high touch" interaction with Microsoft and an enterprise using Confluence ends up converting to SharePoint. Full disclosure: I make my living on SharePoint, and (perhaps ironically in some reader's view) use Confluence and other Atlassian products to manage my business.
  - tbyehl 12y ago
    | And nearly every "high touch" interaction with Microsoft and an enterprise using Confluence ends up converting to SharePoint. Converting, or just ending up with both? I've worked for two companies with both and neither product was ever going to replace the other. As your disclosure suggests, the Atlassian suite fulfills a different set of needs than SharePoint.
    - spdustin 12y ago
      My disclosure is that operating my business doesn't require SharePoint, that's all. I'm not "enterprise", I'm running a small business with one partner, and SharePoint is overkill for us. But your point is well taken. To that point: many of our customers bring up migrating their content from Confluence and the like to SharePoint once they begin using SharePoint as a platform for other apps.

philfreo 12y ago

Many products & services should have clear upfront pricing on their website - no quote needed at all. Once you get into the realm where a quote is needed though (due to complexity of the deal, level of customization, very high price points, legal work, etc.), then Patrick's advice is especially golden.

rrggrr 12y ago

I am happy to give you information (your rough quote) in exchange for information (learning about your need). That is a fair trade because while I can scale my product or service, I cannot scale my time. If I misallocate my time on customers who are not qualified, I starve. You are uncomfortable with this because you are not serious. When you are serious, when there is a real need and real value, this isn't an issue for you.

hvidgaard 12y ago
He specifically say "I had zero special requirements", so you should be able to give him an answer in less than 2 min. That's a low cost for potentially cultivating a lead.
- rrggrr 12y ago
  No. No. No. Successful salespeople get something in return for information they give up. Timeline, budget, application, preferences, payment method, etc. without data a salesperson cannit determine where her time should be spent. Time is her most important commodity.
  - cdcarter 12y ago
    But a customer has no interest or reason to negotiate or bargain with a salesperson for information. They negotiate with a company for a product.
- rmc 12y ago
  No, he thinks he has zero special requirements. Outside the geekosphere, there are lots of people who think they have no special requirements, but actually want something that's physically impossible. (I'm pretty sure there are people who look at (say) a satnav device and think "It should be able to find me the quickest route between all these 50 points in the city" is not a special requirement.)
mc808 12y ago
> customers who are not qualified In other words, "If you have to ask, you can't afford it." That's fine and I will just assume it's true, even if it's not.

ianmcgowan 12y ago

There's a somewhat legitimate case to be made for both points of view here. As a potential customer trying to gauge costs, what's been helpful for me is to ask about license structures and a broad range of per/user, per/server, whatever to make my own order of magnitude estimate. Or you can just come right out and ask "how many zeroes?" Someone like IBM/Oracle will refuse to tell you boo, because they're planning to tailor the quote to match the value delivered. Just kidding, they need to measure your pockets first ;_)

Spooky23 12y ago

On the other hand, when the sales dude sends that quote that you wanted blind without any due dilligence, and you order the wrong crap, what happens? "Boss, these idiots from <insert vendor> don't even know what their product does!"

pbiggar 12y ago

If the vendor doesnt have pricing on the website, they dont sell to people like you. They only sell to people with big money to spend, and you should buy from someone else. If you are buying from someone like AR who _does_ have pricing on the website (https://www.appointmentreminder.org/pricing https://www.appointmentreminder.org/pricing), then you must have a special requirement, and as such you should have the call or you're wasting his time and yours. Generally when people tell you "it depends on what you need" they really do mean it depends on what you need. If you're going to run AR in a hospital for 1000 emergency surgeons, vs your run a 3 person beauty salon. If you're the former, patio11 sending you an email saying "it'll be $x/mo" is meaningless.

gingerlime 12y ago
> If you're going to run AR in a hospital for 1000 emergency surgeons, vs your run a 3 person beauty salon As you state earlier, there's some kind of bracketing going that matches certain service providers (saas or otherwise) to businesses. A 3 person beauty salon won't buy Oracle, but a hospital with 1000 emergency surgeons* would. How can AR fit both audiences then? Even if at its core it's the same service, all the other "layers" make it a completely different business. [*] are there any hospitals that big??
- pbiggar 12y ago
  Sometimes you can service both. GitHub, Heroku, New Relic, CircleCI, are all examples that serve 6 and 7 figure contracts while also supporting tiny 1-person contracts too.
  - gingerlime 12y ago
    Did these companies start doing both or only after getting investment? It's a genuine question, I don't know. I'm guessing you need to reach a certain mass to be able to do real Enterprise sales.
    - patio11 12y ago