5 ms·

Foxconn has an anti-suicide policy. There's a reason.

ceejayoz 12y ago
Foxconn's suicide rate turns out to be lower than the Chinese general population's suicide rate. They've got the population of a good sized city. Per Wikipedia: > Although the number of workplace suicides at the company was large in absolute terms, the rate is still low when compared to the rest of China. (However, the country has a high suicide rate with over 20 deaths per 100,000 persons.) In 2010, the worst year for workplace suicides at Foxconn with a total of 14 deaths, the total employee count was a reported 930,000 people. The average workplace suicide rate for Foxconn that year was 1.5 per 100,000 making it well below the national average suicide rate (around 7% of the national average). America and most other nations have no-suicide policies, too. Try it and you'll likely find yourself detained and treated involuntarily. I'm not sure why you're considering such a thing to be a shocking fact. Congratulations for proving the parent post's "The problem with Apple criticism is a lot of it seems full of cheap shots and unfair framing" statement, though.
- icebraining 12y ago
  The Foxconn suicide rate is (often significantly) lower than the rate of every US state, let alone China's.
- maxerickson 12y ago
  Did you see any numbers that compared it to employed people of similar age? (Per http://www.who.int/mental_health/media/chin.pdf http://www.who.int/mental_health/media/chin.pdf suicide rates in China are significantly higher above the age of 60)
- hawleyal 12y ago
  I think you need to review your position in support of sweatshops and exploitation of people in developing regions. Also, we are talking about statistics posted in China. Are you fucking kidding me?
  - ceejayoz 12y ago
    If you're contending Foxconn has a dramatically higher suicide rate than reported, is there any evidence for the accusation?
    - Joeboy 12y ago
      I would contend that Foxconn employees' overall suicide rate is likely to be larger than their reported workplace suicide rate, for reasons that are presumably obvious. Edit: Looking at http://www.wellness.com/news/6427/us-workplace-suicides-jump-28-percent-report/health-and-wellness-news http://www.wellness.com/news/6427/us-workplace-suicides-jump... , it looks like in the US workplace suicides are less than 1% of overall suicides. Doubtless different in China, but hopefully makes the point that comparing the two statistics is likely to be problematic.
      - ceejayoz 12y ago
        My understanding from news reports - correct me if I'm wrong - is that Foxconn employees tend to live in dorms and spend most of their time on company grounds. Even if they're all going home and committing suicide there, the only evidence I've seen put forward for the supposed wave of suicides is the workplace ones. The stats there don't back up the claims.
        sgnelson 12y ago
        Uh, does the fact that these employees tend to live in company owned dorms (ever heard of Mill Villages, "Company Store") and spend most of their time on company grounds not within and of itself something to question? Or even the fact that this has something to do with a (possible) higher suicide rate? Can you imagine living within a few hundred feet of your 60 hour manufacturing job with 3 other people in a 10 by 10 room, no time to visit family or have fun, enjoy yourself?
        ceejayoz 12y ago
        I think it's both a problem companies like Apple can do a lot more to address and likely to be significantly better than the alternatives most of the employees have available. People aren't joining Foxconn from jobs where they've got 40 hours a week and vacation time. They're often joining from rural areas with subsistence farming, poverty, shittier jobs, etc. International attention on Apple and Foxconn likely prevent at least some abuses that are rampant elsewhere in China. All that said, there's no reason we in places like the US can't pay $20 more for an iPhone.
- Joeboy 12y ago
  > Foxconn's suicide rate turns out to be lower than the Chinese general population's suicide rate. Foxconn employees' workplace suicide rate. In general I'd expect the workplace suicide rate to be a small fraction of the overall suicide rate. Maybe Foxonn employees never leave their workplace and the figures are the same, but that's not great either.
  - mcphage 12y ago
    > Maybe Foxonn employees never leave their workplace and the figures are the same, They don't—their workplace is an entire city, pretty much. > but that's not great either. It's not, but it's a very different issue, and conflating the two is harmful to handling either.
- WorldWideWayne 12y ago
  Nobody would even be commenting on this if Microsoft or some other company [were] unfairly framed. Anyway, there seems to be plenty of data that working conditions at Foxconn are harsh. https://www.google.com/search?q=foxconn+site%3Achinalaborwatch.org&complete=0&num=20 https://www.google.com/search?q=foxconn+site%3Achinalaborwat... Stop defending Apple just because you are totally in love with them people...
  - ceejayoz 12y ago
    > You wouldn't even be commenting on this if Microsoft [were] unfairly framed. Yes, I would, and that's actually one of the problematic parts of the Foxconn reporting - they make components for Microsoft and many other companies, but for some reason coverage focuses on just one of their clients, Apple. Foxconn's working conditions are indeed harsh by developed-world standards, and I'd happily pay a bit more for a phone in order to improve them. At the same time, I can acknowledge that working for Foxconn is likely better than the subsistence farming of the Mao days, and that Foxconn is probably fairly similar to other companies in China doing similar work.
    - WorldWideWayne 12y ago
      Perhaps you would give your attention to this if it were Microsoft, but about 90% of the people here would not. So, my point is - if Apple, as the single most profitable venture that uses slave labor, is sacrificed for getting attention on this topic, what does it matter? Why nitpick the journalism when there is a much larger issue at stake? Besides that - Apple is the most profitable company in the world. People look at them as an example. So, I think it's perfectly fair that journalists target them.

Foxconn's suicide rate turns out to be lower than the Chinese general population's suicide rate. They've got the population of a good sized city. Per Wikipedia: > Although the number of workplace suicides at the company was large in absolute terms, the rate is still low when compared to the rest of China. (However, the country has a high suicide rate with over 20 deaths per 100,000 persons.) In 2010, the worst year for workplace suicides at Foxconn with a total of 14 deaths, the total employee count was a reported 930,000 people. The average workplace suicide rate for Foxconn that year was 1.5 per 100,000 making it well below the national average suicide rate (around 7% of the national average). America and most other nations have no-suicide policies, too. Try it and you'll likely find yourself detained and treated involuntarily. I'm not sure why you're considering such a thing to be a shocking fact. Congratulations for proving the parent post's "The problem with Apple criticism is a lot of it seems full of cheap shots and unfair framing" statement, though.

icebraining 12y ago
The Foxconn suicide rate is (often significantly) lower than the rate of every US state, let alone China's.
maxerickson 12y ago
Did you see any numbers that compared it to employed people of similar age? (Per http://www.who.int/mental_health/media/chin.pdf http://www.who.int/mental_health/media/chin.pdf suicide rates in China are significantly higher above the age of 60)
hawleyal 12y ago
I think you need to review your position in support of sweatshops and exploitation of people in developing regions. Also, we are talking about statistics posted in China. Are you fucking kidding me?
- ceejayoz 12y ago
  If you're contending Foxconn has a dramatically higher suicide rate than reported, is there any evidence for the accusation?
  - Joeboy 12y ago
    I would contend that Foxconn employees' overall suicide rate is likely to be larger than their reported workplace suicide rate, for reasons that are presumably obvious. Edit: Looking at http://www.wellness.com/news/6427/us-workplace-suicides-jump-28-percent-report/health-and-wellness-news http://www.wellness.com/news/6427/us-workplace-suicides-jump... , it looks like in the US workplace suicides are less than 1% of overall suicides. Doubtless different in China, but hopefully makes the point that comparing the two statistics is likely to be problematic.
    - ceejayoz 12y ago
      My understanding from news reports - correct me if I'm wrong - is that Foxconn employees tend to live in dorms and spend most of their time on company grounds. Even if they're all going home and committing suicide there, the only evidence I've seen put forward for the supposed wave of suicides is the workplace ones. The stats there don't back up the claims.
      - sgnelson 12y ago
        Uh, does the fact that these employees tend to live in company owned dorms (ever heard of Mill Villages, "Company Store") and spend most of their time on company grounds not within and of itself something to question? Or even the fact that this has something to do with a (possible) higher suicide rate? Can you imagine living within a few hundred feet of your 60 hour manufacturing job with 3 other people in a 10 by 10 room, no time to visit family or have fun, enjoy yourself?
        ceejayoz 12y ago
        I think it's both a problem companies like Apple can do a lot more to address and likely to be significantly better than the alternatives most of the employees have available. People aren't joining Foxconn from jobs where they've got 40 hours a week and vacation time. They're often joining from rural areas with subsistence farming, poverty, shittier jobs, etc. International attention on Apple and Foxconn likely prevent at least some abuses that are rampant elsewhere in China. All that said, there's no reason we in places like the US can't pay $20 more for an iPhone.
Joeboy 12y ago
> Foxconn's suicide rate turns out to be lower than the Chinese general population's suicide rate. Foxconn employees' workplace suicide rate. In general I'd expect the workplace suicide rate to be a small fraction of the overall suicide rate. Maybe Foxonn employees never leave their workplace and the figures are the same, but that's not great either.
- mcphage 12y ago
  > Maybe Foxonn employees never leave their workplace and the figures are the same, They don't—their workplace is an entire city, pretty much. > but that's not great either. It's not, but it's a very different issue, and conflating the two is harmful to handling either.
WorldWideWayne 12y ago
Nobody would even be commenting on this if Microsoft or some other company [were] unfairly framed. Anyway, there seems to be plenty of data that working conditions at Foxconn are harsh. https://www.google.com/search?q=foxconn+site%3Achinalaborwatch.org&complete=0&num=20 https://www.google.com/search?q=foxconn+site%3Achinalaborwat... Stop defending Apple just because you are totally in love with them people...
- ceejayoz 12y ago
  > You wouldn't even be commenting on this if Microsoft [were] unfairly framed. Yes, I would, and that's actually one of the problematic parts of the Foxconn reporting - they make components for Microsoft and many other companies, but for some reason coverage focuses on just one of their clients, Apple. Foxconn's working conditions are indeed harsh by developed-world standards, and I'd happily pay a bit more for a phone in order to improve them. At the same time, I can acknowledge that working for Foxconn is likely better than the subsistence farming of the Mao days, and that Foxconn is probably fairly similar to other companies in China doing similar work.
  - WorldWideWayne 12y ago
    Perhaps you would give your attention to this if it were Microsoft, but about 90% of the people here would not. So, my point is - if Apple, as the single most profitable venture that uses slave labor, is sacrificed for getting attention on this topic, what does it matter? Why nitpick the journalism when there is a much larger issue at stake? Besides that - Apple is the most profitable company in the world. People look at them as an example. So, I think it's perfectly fair that journalists target them.