4 ms·

What exactly are the downsides of people speaking different languages according to a religious book? Please try not to use terms like efficiency in the answer.

by caio1982 12y ago

What exactly are the downsides of people speaking different languages according to a religious book? Please try not to use terms like efficiency in the answer. And it's not simply like "a person can speak more than one language". It's actually more than half of the freaking world speaking more than one language. If you happen to live in a region (and I'm not saying "country") where people only speak one single language then it's quite possible you're the exception in fact.

treerock 12y ago
I presume he's referring to Babel. "Indeed the people are one and they all have one language, and this is what they begin to do; now nothing that they propose to do will be withheld from them. "Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech. "So the Lord scattered them abroad from there over the face of all the earth, and they ceased building the city. "Therefore its name is called Babel, because there the Lord confused the language of all the earth; and from there the Lord scattered them abroad over the face of all the earth."
austerity 12y ago
Why shouldn't I use terms like efficiency? Because it's exactly about efficiency. Or ease of collaboration and communication if the e-word offends you for some reason. The languages are a barrier to distribution of knowledge. Yes you can learn a second language (I did that), but it takes lots of time and energy that could be spent elsewhere (and this doesn't really depend on where you live).
- intopieces 12y ago
  It's all about efficiency until the group in charge decides the most efficient language is not yours... then you're back to taking lots of time and energy learning another language, just to keep up. What no one seems to recognize is the damage to identity these forced-assimilation exercises wrought.
  - austerity 12y ago
    I've never argued for forced assimilation and nor did "the man in the back row". And there definitely shouldn't be any group in charge with a power to decide that. What I'm arguing against is forced preservation in the name of saving some abstract entity called identity.
    - intopieces 12y ago
      I'm not familiar with forced preservation. Which countries does it happen in, and what effect does it have on the people who it is put upon? Could you link me to some studies that show the negative effects of requiring majority language speakers to learn a minority language? My thesis for linguistics was the opposite - loss of cultural identity due to forced assimilation - and I never encountered the opposite.
      - austerity 12y ago
        Ireland - everyone speaks English as their first language, but Irish is mandatory in schools Belarus - everyone speaks Russian, but Belorussian is mandatory in schools Ukraine - a vast number of people (maybe not majority but too many to be called a minority) speaks Russian as their first language but Ukrainian is mandatory in schools and all attempts to give Russian some sort of official status were meet with fierce opposition for no other reason than to preserve national identity Tatarstan (not so sure about this one, also not a country) - Tatar is mandatory in schools for all the same reasons Yes, all of these majority languages where once forced on the peoples of colonies by the empires. But all the people who were forced to learn them are now dead. So the current generations are forced to learn those original languages in the name of historical justice and other bullshit. And what studies do you need for negative effects? The time learning those languages involuntarily is obviously not spent doing anything else. Is that not negative enough for you?
        intopieces 12y ago
        >The time learning those languages involuntarily is obviously not spent doing anything else. Is that not negative enough for you? No, it is not enough for me. The same could be said of any other school subject you don't have an interest in, a sort of grown up version of "When am I ever going to use trigonometry?" complaint you hear out of school kids. But since I'm a firm believer in "historical justice and other bullshit," I think we're at an impasse here.
- rimantas 12y ago
  Luckily, life is not about efficiency.
  - austerity 12y ago
    It's a rather shallow statement really. Without efficiency life becomes about hard work in the field from sunrise till sunset.
    - nemo 12y ago
      Frankly, looking at life in terms of efficiency is profoundly shallow, and very sad.
Hermel 12y ago
As a Swiss speaking three languages, I can confirm that every additional language comes at a cost. Only having one language is more efficient. However, I believe there are subtle implied philosophical differences. For example, I perceive German to be more principle-oriented and idealistic in comparison to English, which tends to favor more pragmatic thoughts. As an example, consider the word "Sachzwang", which has no direct English equivalent and roughly translates to "inherent necessity". It is a typical word for a language that thinks in absolute principles. Of course, it is also possible to express this in English, it is just a little less convenient and thus also less frequently done. It's like different programming languages that are all turing-complete, but some allow to express certain things more effectively. From that point of view, having fewer languages would also come with a reduction in diversity of thoughts.
- hyperliner 12y ago
  You could say "constraint," per Google Translate!
  - Hermel 12y ago
    I'd say constraint comes as close as 22/7 to pi. Constraint is passive. Sachzwang forces you to do something. For example, "sachzwangreduzierte Ehrlichkeit" means a level of honesty that had to be reduced due to factual higher-order constraints.
    - hyperliner 12y ago
      That is a fascinating example. What is a situation and sentence in which you would use it? How would you write it in German? How would you write it in English?
- vorg 12y ago
  The definition of words (like "Sachzwang") which express abstract ideas (whether nouns, abjectives or verbs) are subtly different for everyone who speaks the same language, and is the sum total of all the contexts the hearer has heard (or read) the word in use, after allowing for their individual personality and cultural background. And often the same word can be spoken with more than one accompanying intonation in many languages, thus effectively splitting one lexical word into many.
bane 12y ago
If you aren't familiar with the Biblical story (and there's no reason why you should be): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tower_of_Babel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tower_of_Babel The lesson is that language diversity prevents coordinated work.

treerock 12y ago

I presume he's referring to Babel. "Indeed the people are one and they all have one language, and this is what they begin to do; now nothing that they propose to do will be withheld from them. "Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech. "So the Lord scattered them abroad from there over the face of all the earth, and they ceased building the city. "Therefore its name is called Babel, because there the Lord confused the language of all the earth; and from there the Lord scattered them abroad over the face of all the earth."

austerity 12y ago

Why shouldn't I use terms like efficiency? Because it's exactly about efficiency. Or ease of collaboration and communication if the e-word offends you for some reason. The languages are a barrier to distribution of knowledge. Yes you can learn a second language (I did that), but it takes lots of time and energy that could be spent elsewhere (and this doesn't really depend on where you live).

intopieces 12y ago
It's all about efficiency until the group in charge decides the most efficient language is not yours... then you're back to taking lots of time and energy learning another language, just to keep up. What no one seems to recognize is the damage to identity these forced-assimilation exercises wrought.
- austerity 12y ago
  I've never argued for forced assimilation and nor did "the man in the back row". And there definitely shouldn't be any group in charge with a power to decide that. What I'm arguing against is forced preservation in the name of saving some abstract entity called identity.
  - intopieces 12y ago
    I'm not familiar with forced preservation. Which countries does it happen in, and what effect does it have on the people who it is put upon? Could you link me to some studies that show the negative effects of requiring majority language speakers to learn a minority language? My thesis for linguistics was the opposite - loss of cultural identity due to forced assimilation - and I never encountered the opposite.
    - austerity 12y ago
      Ireland - everyone speaks English as their first language, but Irish is mandatory in schools Belarus - everyone speaks Russian, but Belorussian is mandatory in schools Ukraine - a vast number of people (maybe not majority but too many to be called a minority) speaks Russian as their first language but Ukrainian is mandatory in schools and all attempts to give Russian some sort of official status were meet with fierce opposition for no other reason than to preserve national identity Tatarstan (not so sure about this one, also not a country) - Tatar is mandatory in schools for all the same reasons Yes, all of these majority languages where once forced on the peoples of colonies by the empires. But all the people who were forced to learn them are now dead. So the current generations are forced to learn those original languages in the name of historical justice and other bullshit. And what studies do you need for negative effects? The time learning those languages involuntarily is obviously not spent doing anything else. Is that not negative enough for you?
      - intopieces 12y ago
        >The time learning those languages involuntarily is obviously not spent doing anything else. Is that not negative enough for you? No, it is not enough for me. The same could be said of any other school subject you don't have an interest in, a sort of grown up version of "When am I ever going to use trigonometry?" complaint you hear out of school kids. But since I'm a firm believer in "historical justice and other bullshit," I think we're at an impasse here.
rimantas 12y ago
Luckily, life is not about efficiency.
- austerity 12y ago
  It's a rather shallow statement really. Without efficiency life becomes about hard work in the field from sunrise till sunset.
  - nemo 12y ago
    Frankly, looking at life in terms of efficiency is profoundly shallow, and very sad.

Hermel 12y ago

As a Swiss speaking three languages, I can confirm that every additional language comes at a cost. Only having one language is more efficient. However, I believe there are subtle implied philosophical differences. For example, I perceive German to be more principle-oriented and idealistic in comparison to English, which tends to favor more pragmatic thoughts. As an example, consider the word "Sachzwang", which has no direct English equivalent and roughly translates to "inherent necessity". It is a typical word for a language that thinks in absolute principles. Of course, it is also possible to express this in English, it is just a little less convenient and thus also less frequently done. It's like different programming languages that are all turing-complete, but some allow to express certain things more effectively. From that point of view, having fewer languages would also come with a reduction in diversity of thoughts.

hyperliner 12y ago
You could say "constraint," per Google Translate!
- Hermel 12y ago
  I'd say constraint comes as close as 22/7 to pi. Constraint is passive. Sachzwang forces you to do something. For example, "sachzwangreduzierte Ehrlichkeit" means a level of honesty that had to be reduced due to factual higher-order constraints.
  - hyperliner 12y ago
    That is a fascinating example. What is a situation and sentence in which you would use it? How would you write it in German? How would you write it in English?
vorg 12y ago
The definition of words (like "Sachzwang") which express abstract ideas (whether nouns, abjectives or verbs) are subtly different for everyone who speaks the same language, and is the sum total of all the contexts the hearer has heard (or read) the word in use, after allowing for their individual personality and cultural background. And often the same word can be spoken with more than one accompanying intonation in many languages, thus effectively splitting one lexical word into many.

bane 12y ago

If you aren't familiar with the Biblical story (and there's no reason why you should be): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tower_of_Babel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tower_of_Babel The lesson is that language diversity prevents coordinated work.