5 ms·

I find that anyone against this reunion is doing it because of something utterly trivial and selfish.

by debacle 12y ago

hyperbovine 12y ago
When I was in Cuba, a lot of people I talked to were obviously in favor of lifting the embargo, but others expressed misgivings about what it would do to their culture and society. Cuba is an indescribably weird place where almost everybody is (on paper anyways) poor, yet education, health care and the arts flourish. Violent crime is virtually unheard of, say what you will about how they achieve that. They are very proud of their resilience in the face of a half-century's worth of crippling U.S. sanctions--in particular the period after the collapse of the Soviet Union. Normalization will lead to a rise in the Cuban material standard of living, and with it will come all of the attendant social woes that we have here. That's neither totally good nor totally bad, and it should be up to the Cuban people to choose their own path, but I can see why you might oppose this for other than purely selfish reasons.
- debacle 12y ago
  Cuba flaunts the US hegemony from right under their noses, but they have great wealth in their geographic location, and their society. Cuba could become the Switzerland of the western hemisphere given the right outset.
  - polarix 12y ago
    What does "given the right outset" mean?
    - calibraxis 12y ago
      The US is the militant world hegemon. Which happily sends uniformed killers halfway around the world to take control. Proximity to the US isn't healthy for freedom-lovers with browner skin.
- Florin_Andrei 12y ago
  > Cuba is an indescribably weird place where almost everybody is (on paper anyways) poor, yet education, health care and the arts flourish. Violent crime is virtually unheard of I grew up in the Eastern Bloc, I was in college when the revolutions happened. Now I live in the US. When I describe the life under communists to people who grew up here, I mention, of course, the lack of political freedom, the demagoguery, etc. But then I say things like "OTOH unemployment was zero, health care was free (\), college was free, and everyone was sure to receive a livable pension from the state when they retired." Oh, and there was a decline and clear commercialization of the arts immediately after revolution. Then everyone gives me odd looks. It's like they expect a tale of Aragorn vs. Mordor, with clear heroes and villains. It's not like that. Life in the US is clearly better overall, but there are some interesting points to be learned from the ol'country too. Not kicking the destitute to the curb seems the most important. --- (\) - if you felt the impulse to point out that "free" really means "paid out of your taxes", please be informed that Captain Obvious and his minions are not welcome here. Yes, we get it, ktnxbai.
  - termain 12y ago
    Unemployment is such a funny thing. In a free market economy, unemployment is a necessity but seems to be treated as a universal evil.
    - AnthonyMouse 12y ago
      Unemployment is a feature of a regulated capitalist economy. The primary source of unemployment is the minimum wage. There are a nearly unlimited source of jobs available if you would accept $1/hour as payment, and if you have no other employment then at least it gets you experience/recommendations and enough to buy some food. The minimum wage is a trade off. You create e.g. 10% unemployment so that the ~4.3% of people who make the minimum wage (and still have jobs) can make $7.25/hour instead of $5 or $3. There is a legitimate question as to whether this is the right trade off, but people seem to be in favor of it.
      - Gracana 12y ago
- mistermumble 12y ago
  > education health care and the arts flourish Yes. Music also. THIS is the Cuba I'd like to see: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tozhe0yTAqo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tozhe0yTAqo
  - l0c0b0x 12y ago
    Heck yeah! The simple Cuba, I wish to make it there before it becomes westernized.
unchocked 12y ago
Your perspective is flawed because you are projecting too logical a world view on the opponents of rapprochement, but from an emotionally conservative perspective it's seen as giving up the fight against evil.
ProAm 12y ago
It's a good thing, but Cuba is about to be gentrified. I really wish I had visited before now, Cuba is going to lose a lot of culture in the long term. I can envision McDonald's and Starbucks everywhere.
- debacle 12y ago
  If Cuba is selling itself to the US, then I am concerned. If the US exports its version of capitalism to Cuba then Cuba is doomed.

I find that anyone against this reunion is doing it because of something utterly trivial and selfish.

by debacle 12y ago

I find that anyone against this reunion is doing it because of something utterly trivial and selfish.

When I was in Cuba, a lot of people I talked to were obviously in favor of lifting the embargo, but others expressed misgivings about what it would do to their culture and society. Cuba is an indescribably weird place where almost everybody is (on paper anyways) poor, yet education, health care and the arts flourish. Violent crime is virtually unheard of, say what you will about how they achieve that. They are very proud of their resilience in the face of a half-century's worth of crippling U.S. sanctions--in particular the period after the collapse of the Soviet Union. Normalization will lead to a rise in the Cuban material standard of living, and with it will come all of the attendant social woes that we have here. That's neither totally good nor totally bad, and it should be up to the Cuban people to choose their own path, but I can see why you might oppose this for other than purely selfish reasons.

debacle 12y ago
Cuba flaunts the US hegemony from right under their noses, but they have great wealth in their geographic location, and their society. Cuba could become the Switzerland of the western hemisphere given the right outset.
- polarix 12y ago
  What does "given the right outset" mean?
  - calibraxis 12y ago
    The US is the militant world hegemon. Which happily sends uniformed killers halfway around the world to take control. Proximity to the US isn't healthy for freedom-lovers with browner skin.
Florin_Andrei 12y ago
> Cuba is an indescribably weird place where almost everybody is (on paper anyways) poor, yet education, health care and the arts flourish. Violent crime is virtually unheard of I grew up in the Eastern Bloc, I was in college when the revolutions happened. Now I live in the US. When I describe the life under communists to people who grew up here, I mention, of course, the lack of political freedom, the demagoguery, etc. But then I say things like "OTOH unemployment was zero, health care was free (\), college was free, and everyone was sure to receive a livable pension from the state when they retired." Oh, and there was a decline and clear commercialization of the arts immediately after revolution. Then everyone gives me odd looks. It's like they expect a tale of Aragorn vs. Mordor, with clear heroes and villains. It's not like that. Life in the US is clearly better overall, but there are some interesting points to be learned from the ol'country too. Not kicking the destitute to the curb seems the most important. --- (\) - if you felt the impulse to point out that "free" really means "paid out of your taxes", please be informed that Captain Obvious and his minions are not welcome here. Yes, we get it, ktnxbai.
- termain 12y ago
  Unemployment is such a funny thing. In a free market economy, unemployment is a necessity but seems to be treated as a universal evil.
  - AnthonyMouse 12y ago
    Unemployment is a feature of a regulated capitalist economy. The primary source of unemployment is the minimum wage. There are a nearly unlimited source of jobs available if you would accept $1/hour as payment, and if you have no other employment then at least it gets you experience/recommendations and enough to buy some food. The minimum wage is a trade off. You create e.g. 10% unemployment so that the ~4.3% of people who make the minimum wage (and still have jobs) can make $7.25/hour instead of $5 or $3. There is a legitimate question as to whether this is the right trade off, but people seem to be in favor of it.
    - Gracana 12y ago
mistermumble 12y ago
> education health care and the arts flourish Yes. Music also. THIS is the Cuba I'd like to see: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tozhe0yTAqo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tozhe0yTAqo
- l0c0b0x 12y ago
  Heck yeah! The simple Cuba, I wish to make it there before it becomes westernized.

unchocked 12y ago

Your perspective is flawed because you are projecting too logical a world view on the opponents of rapprochement, but from an emotionally conservative perspective it's seen as giving up the fight against evil.

ProAm 12y ago

It's a good thing, but Cuba is about to be gentrified. I really wish I had visited before now, Cuba is going to lose a lot of culture in the long term. I can envision McDonald's and Starbucks everywhere.

debacle 12y ago
If Cuba is selling itself to the US, then I am concerned. If the US exports its version of capitalism to Cuba then Cuba is doomed.