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A little off topic, but in terms of kids' stories and dubious messages my favourite example is Rumpelstiltskin. Firstly it shows an abusive dictator taking wha

by sjcsjc 12y ago

A little off topic, but in terms of kids' stories and dubious messages my favourite example is Rumpelstiltskin. Firstly it shows an abusive dictator taking what he wants with force and threats (the King says he'll marry the miller's daughter if she creates enough gold for him, but kill her if she doesn't). This is not portrayed as a bad thing, and no justice is ever done for it. Secondly it suggests that a contract freely entered into can be reneged upon later if you simply change your mind (the miller's daughter, now the queen, refuses to hand over the baby as she'd previously agreed to do, in order to save her life from the baby's father). I suppose it could be argued that the contract was not entered freely by the miller's daughter, since she was under mortal threat. However, it was not the other party doing the threatening, but a third party (the king). Perhaps a lawyer could comment on this. Or maybe it's just a nice story and I'm reading too much into it ;-)

jagermo 12y ago
No, those stories are not nice, most of them are pretty dark. We have a very old edition of Grimm's Fairy Tales and the stories are horrible. I used to read them at my grandparents house when I was around 10 or 12 and some really gave me the creeps (like that you have to set the changeling on a pot in a hot stove to kill it).
tzs 12y ago
I've been reading Grimm's fairy tales, and a few of them (heck, most of them) leave me wondering why the heck people would tell that story. For instance, there's one called "The Turnip". There are two brothers, both soldiers. One is rich, one is poor. The poor one gives up soldiering and becomes a gardner. He grows a huge turnip, and gives it to the King as a gift. The King is impressed, and declares that the gardner shall be poor no more, and gives him gifts, proclaiming that he shall have even more than his brother. The brother then gives the King gifts, expecting to get rewarded by the King and return to being wealthier than his brother. The King is impressed, and gives the brother the most impressive thing the King has--the giant turnip. That pisses the soldier brother off, and he hires murderers to kill the gardner brother. The murderers lure gardner brother out to the woods, and prepare to hang him, but they hear a traveller approaching and panic, and only manage to get the gardner stuffed in a sack that they hang from a tree and then they run off. By the time the traveller arrives on the scene, the gardner brother has managed to make a hole in the sack and get his head out. He hails the traveller, and finds out that the traveller is a student in search of knowledge. The student asks what the gardner is doing in the sack. The gardner tells him it is the Sack of Wisdom, and by hanging in it from a tree, one acquires the secrets of the universe. The student begs to be allowed into the sack, and the gardner agrees to change places. The student rescues him, gets into the sack, and the gardner hoists it up the tree. The gardner then steals the student's horse and goes home. (Some versions have the gardner send someone an hour or two later to go cut the student down, some just end with gardner riding off on the horse). WTF? What is the point of this story? I don't see a lesson...no bad guys get their comeuppance. The guy that I thought was going to be the good guy (the gardner) ends up stealing from the naive student when it suits him. Is the lesson that it is really every man for himself and so when someone does something bad to you, go ahead and find someone else you can screw over to fix your situation?
- scrumper 12y ago
  I've always taken them as child-friendly introductions to the idea that life is sometimes hard, and that bad things can happen to good people. I suspect, though I don't know, that children of Grimm's era were obliged to play a part in society far earlier than they are today, making such lessons quite valuable. (The idea of preserving innocence is relatively new).
- learnstats2 12y ago
  >I don't see a lesson...no bad guys get their comeuppance. Perhaps the lesson is that bad guys don't always get their comeuppance; most people can't simply be classified into 'bad' and 'good'; people might screw you over even if you trust them. Pretty important lessons for children (and everyone). Even if you tell children only the fairy tales with lovely happy-endings, they will experience the truth of the schoolyard. Under what circumstances do you prefer children to have to deal with these lessons? I suggest that Grimm is popular for good reason.

by sjcsjc 12y ago

jagermo 12y ago

No, those stories are not nice, most of them are pretty dark. We have a very old edition of Grimm's Fairy Tales and the stories are horrible. I used to read them at my grandparents house when I was around 10 or 12 and some really gave me the creeps (like that you have to set the changeling on a pot in a hot stove to kill it).

tzs 12y ago

I've been reading Grimm's fairy tales, and a few of them (heck, most of them) leave me wondering why the heck people would tell that story. For instance, there's one called "The Turnip". There are two brothers, both soldiers. One is rich, one is poor. The poor one gives up soldiering and becomes a gardner. He grows a huge turnip, and gives it to the King as a gift. The King is impressed, and declares that the gardner shall be poor no more, and gives him gifts, proclaiming that he shall have even more than his brother. The brother then gives the King gifts, expecting to get rewarded by the King and return to being wealthier than his brother. The King is impressed, and gives the brother the most impressive thing the King has--the giant turnip. That pisses the soldier brother off, and he hires murderers to kill the gardner brother. The murderers lure gardner brother out to the woods, and prepare to hang him, but they hear a traveller approaching and panic, and only manage to get the gardner stuffed in a sack that they hang from a tree and then they run off. By the time the traveller arrives on the scene, the gardner brother has managed to make a hole in the sack and get his head out. He hails the traveller, and finds out that the traveller is a student in search of knowledge. The student asks what the gardner is doing in the sack. The gardner tells him it is the Sack of Wisdom, and by hanging in it from a tree, one acquires the secrets of the universe. The student begs to be allowed into the sack, and the gardner agrees to change places. The student rescues him, gets into the sack, and the gardner hoists it up the tree. The gardner then steals the student's horse and goes home. (Some versions have the gardner send someone an hour or two later to go cut the student down, some just end with gardner riding off on the horse). WTF? What is the point of this story? I don't see a lesson...no bad guys get their comeuppance. The guy that I thought was going to be the good guy (the gardner) ends up stealing from the naive student when it suits him. Is the lesson that it is really every man for himself and so when someone does something bad to you, go ahead and find someone else you can screw over to fix your situation?

scrumper 12y ago
I've always taken them as child-friendly introductions to the idea that life is sometimes hard, and that bad things can happen to good people. I suspect, though I don't know, that children of Grimm's era were obliged to play a part in society far earlier than they are today, making such lessons quite valuable. (The idea of preserving innocence is relatively new).
learnstats2 12y ago
>I don't see a lesson...no bad guys get their comeuppance. Perhaps the lesson is that bad guys don't always get their comeuppance; most people can't simply be classified into 'bad' and 'good'; people might screw you over even if you trust them. Pretty important lessons for children (and everyone). Even if you tell children only the fairy tales with lovely happy-endings, they will experience the truth of the schoolyard. Under what circumstances do you prefer children to have to deal with these lessons? I suggest that Grimm is popular for good reason.