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<sarcasm>Wow. Save (an alledged) drug trafficker from incriminating himself in plain view. They really did the public a huge favour here. </sarcasm> As much

by millerc 12y ago

<sarcasm>Wow. Save (an alledged) drug trafficker from incriminating himself in plain view. They really did the public a huge favour here. </sarcasm> As much as I support the rule of law, there's no way I can interpret that as benefiting mankind in any way.

EliRivers 12y ago
"As much as I support the rule of law, there's no way I can interpret that as benefiting mankind in any way." Really? Can you really not see the broad benefit to society of teaching the authorities that they must obey the law?
- millerc 12y ago
  https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman
sls 12y ago
No civil libertarian is delighted to save criminals from prosecution just to frustrate law enforcement. It often happens that the frontiers of acceptable state conduct are tested in such cases, though. Here, EFF isn't interested in making sure Vargas can shoot cans in his yard without interference. Rather, they are concerned that the government not be able to put people's homes under 24/7 video surveillance without even probable cause (which is all that is needed for a warrant).
- millerc 12y ago
  Then, maybe the correct course of action for the EFF would be to work on improving the warrant system, rather than working on keeping alleged drug-dealing, unlicensed gun owners, illegal immigrants out of legal trouble?
  - higherpurpose 12y ago
    How would they "improve" the warrant system? The police went around the warrant to illegally spy on someone. The point of a warrant is to stop illegal spying, and make sure only people who deserve being spied upon are spied upon. If the police was sure he deserved it and had the evidence to prove it, they should've just gotten the warrant. If they weren't, then they were just fishing and waiting for someone co commit a crime. And that's not just immoral, but against the Constitution.
  - pygy_ 12y ago
    > Then, maybe the correct course of action for the EFF would be to work on improving the warrant system, rather than working on keeping alleged drug-dealing, unlicensed gun owners, illegal immigrants out of legal trouble? That's what they are doing, this is how jurisprudence works. Hadn't they challenged the warantless spying, it would have made a precedent in court. The police could have relied on the acceptance of the evidence in this case to do it again, anywhere in the US.
  - ska 12y ago
    Is anything wrong with the warrant system? The fact that police are often trying to avoid/circumvent it is not evidence that it isn't working as designed, just that it isn't working as they would like (which is to be expected).
  - forgottenpass 12y ago
    Then, maybe the correct course of action for the EFF would be to work on improving the warrant system What good does a warrant system do if the government doesn't follow the law? Trials like this are how courts get the executive arms of the government to follow the law. You'll notice that the presiding judge actively solicited a brief from the EFF.
colechristensen 12y ago
Getting a warrant isn't that hard; require the police to be checked by the power of the courts, that's all that's being asked.
- afarrell 12y ago
  Actually getting a wiretapping warrant is really hard and you have to execute it meticulously unless you want the evidence to get thrown out. At least, if you are law enforcement. Of course, if you are the NSA and aren't charging anyone with any crimes, you don't have to worry about suppression hearings and the judge who issued it can never have that decision appealed like they could in a civilian court...
vpeters25 12y ago
> As much as I support the rule of law, there's no way I can interpret that as benefiting mankind in any way. A co-worker who was on law school explained these rules are to make sure an innocent person is never found guilty, even if that means letting criminals walk.

by millerc 12y ago

EliRivers 12y ago

"As much as I support the rule of law, there's no way I can interpret that as benefiting mankind in any way." Really? Can you really not see the broad benefit to society of teaching the authorities that they must obey the law?

millerc 12y ago
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman

sls 12y ago

No civil libertarian is delighted to save criminals from prosecution just to frustrate law enforcement. It often happens that the frontiers of acceptable state conduct are tested in such cases, though. Here, EFF isn't interested in making sure Vargas can shoot cans in his yard without interference. Rather, they are concerned that the government not be able to put people's homes under 24/7 video surveillance without even probable cause (which is all that is needed for a warrant).

millerc 12y ago
Then, maybe the correct course of action for the EFF would be to work on improving the warrant system, rather than working on keeping alleged drug-dealing, unlicensed gun owners, illegal immigrants out of legal trouble?
- higherpurpose 12y ago
  How would they "improve" the warrant system? The police went around the warrant to illegally spy on someone. The point of a warrant is to stop illegal spying, and make sure only people who deserve being spied upon are spied upon. If the police was sure he deserved it and had the evidence to prove it, they should've just gotten the warrant. If they weren't, then they were just fishing and waiting for someone co commit a crime. And that's not just immoral, but against the Constitution.
- pygy_ 12y ago
  > Then, maybe the correct course of action for the EFF would be to work on improving the warrant system, rather than working on keeping alleged drug-dealing, unlicensed gun owners, illegal immigrants out of legal trouble? That's what they are doing, this is how jurisprudence works. Hadn't they challenged the warantless spying, it would have made a precedent in court. The police could have relied on the acceptance of the evidence in this case to do it again, anywhere in the US.
- ska 12y ago
  Is anything wrong with the warrant system? The fact that police are often trying to avoid/circumvent it is not evidence that it isn't working as designed, just that it isn't working as they would like (which is to be expected).
- forgottenpass 12y ago
  Then, maybe the correct course of action for the EFF would be to work on improving the warrant system What good does a warrant system do if the government doesn't follow the law? Trials like this are how courts get the executive arms of the government to follow the law. You'll notice that the presiding judge actively solicited a brief from the EFF.

colechristensen 12y ago

Getting a warrant isn't that hard; require the police to be checked by the power of the courts, that's all that's being asked.

afarrell 12y ago
Actually getting a wiretapping warrant is really hard and you have to execute it meticulously unless you want the evidence to get thrown out. At least, if you are law enforcement. Of course, if you are the NSA and aren't charging anyone with any crimes, you don't have to worry about suppression hearings and the judge who issued it can never have that decision appealed like they could in a civilian court...

vpeters25 12y ago

> As much as I support the rule of law, there's no way I can interpret that as benefiting mankind in any way. A co-worker who was on law school explained these rules are to make sure an innocent person is never found guilty, even if that means letting criminals walk.