4 ms·

As if autism is a "thing" that you "have". HIV is a thing that you can have. We check your blood and say "yup, you got HIV in there" or "nope, you're clean". Au

As if autism is a "thing" that you "have". HIV is a thing that you can have. We check your blood and say "yup, you got HIV in there" or "nope, you're clean". Autism, like many terms, isn't a thing. It isn't even a state. It's a description of a state. But it's not a complete description of that state. It's really just a loose description of part of a state. Every case is different. Every autistic person is unique.

harperlee 12y ago
If it is useful, I don't know a lot about autism, and for me your comment is super cryptic. What are you trying to say? Isn't autism sort of a dimension? I've heard about "the autist spectre", and the prevalence in males, and that's the idea that I got.
- pavel_lishin 12y ago
  "The Autist Spectre" sounds a little like "The Holy Spirit". Did you mean "autism spectrum"?
  - harperlee 12y ago
    Yes, sorry for that :) not being a native english speaker, I sort-of translated it (I guess I haven't seen it in english a lot).
- VLM 12y ago
  That would be "spectrum" as its quite smooth and analog. Unlike a medical condition like a broken bone where you either got two pieces or one and in between is kind of unlikely. Historically no test existed other than behavior observations. Oh look a cluster of behaviors, we'll call it a disease. That leads to some severe cultural problems like just medicating the hell out of people until their vegetate. Not a very nice thing to do. The highest functioning people aka closest to normal (whatever normal is...) tend to not appreciate being drugged into submission, eliminating any chance of higher level human functioning. (edited to emphasis the side effects of most medications for autism symptoms tend to be intensely punishing both physically and mentally) Its rather like obesity, there's quite a range and how much someone has and how much someone needs to be forcibly "fixed" is open to quite a bit of opinion. OP is correct in that they selected a group of very high functioning people and controls, so what if anything that would have to do with low functioning people is mysterious and its quite possible they have little in common other than symptoms / behaviors. So saying "we can detect autism" is kind of like saying "we can fix broken computers". Well, define broken computers narrowly enough and ... On the other hand OP may not have read the article because OP is claiming "we can't" and similar, when "we now can". At least in a highly restricted setting with specially selected test subjects. It does not appear to be a magic bullet along the lines of a glucose tolerance test being pretty effective at diagnosing diabetes.
  - darkarmani 12y ago
    > Historically no test existed other than behavior observations. Oh look a cluster of behaviors, we'll call it a disease. What medical literature calls it a disease? I've only ever heard it called a disorder. Why wouldn't they classify a bunch of behaviors under the same umbrella? They've gotten better and better at subdividing the class of disorders. I'm not sure i understand the problem with grouping related disorders together. > That leads to some severe cultural problems like just medicating the hell out of people until their vegetate. Not a very nice thing to do. You can't blame cultural issues on the way medicine groups disorders. This isn't One Flew Over the Coo-coos Nest. > someone needs to be forcibly "fixed" is open to quite a bit of opinion. Jesus Christ! Some sympathy for parents and caregivers. You act like they don't want what is best for their children. > OP is correct in that they selected a group of very high functioning people and controls, so what if anything that would have to do with low functioning people is mysterious and its quite possible they have little in common other than symptoms / behaviors. I'm not sure what you want. You don't like them grouping based on observable behaviors, but you are negative at them trying to find markers through fMRI. If anything, if it works on high functioning patients who have less noticeable behaviors, it is more likely to work on low functioning patients as long as they can understand the tasks. The difference in brain activity should be greater in low-functioning patients (although the algorithm needs to be trained on that set of data). > So saying "we can detect autism" is kind of like saying "we can fix broken computers". Well, define broken computers narrowly enough and ... It's the opposite of that. They've proved finding differences in high functioning "computers" so it should follow that finding differences in low functioning "computers" is easier (if you can find a way to get cooperation). > It does not appear to be a magic bullet along the lines of a glucose tolerance test being pretty effective at diagnosing diabetes. There was only 34 individuals in the experiment. It needs a tremendous amount of further testing. From the article: "Despite the very high sensitivity and specificity of the approach (33/34 or 97% of participants classified correctly), the study has clear limitations. First, the current paradigm, requiring significant cooperation during thoughts about social interactions, would be difficult to apply to participants with lower-functioning autism. Second, it is not yet known whether this type of classification can differentiate autism from other special populations, such as those with other developmental and neurological disorders. Furthermore, it would be desirable to develop a neurosemantic screening battery that contains a variety of items capable of evoking altered representations in a number of psychiatric disorders, along with a classifier that accurately identifies the disorder of individual participants. Each disorder could then be identified or diagnosed on the basis of its own characteristic alterations of thought. Because of the many co-morbidities among psychiatric disorders, one might expect classification of some individuals into more than one category. Fortunately, these limitations have the potential of being overcome through further research efforts."
- spain 12y ago
  >I've heard about "the autist spectre" Now I want to see someone draw this.
baldfat 12y ago
Autism is a catch all just like Cancer is a catch all. It works to get you into the ball park. Yes you are 100% right BUT also 100% wrong (just semantics I don't know if we really disagree) there are subsets of Autism and Autism is a thing scientifically and medically. Just like depression is a thing that you can't get a specific test for doesn't mean it isn't a thing. Having adopted two boys with a very mild form of Autism called Aspergers, most doctors use to use the term High Functioning Autism. You can also have sever Autism, AKA low functioning Autism. When working with children or parenting I can specifically look at where they are. So while every person is unique you can be categorized as high functioning or low functioning autism and given many other sub-categories. The only reason why I say this is that many people dismiss early diagnosis and then their child doesn't get early intervention. The earlier the interventions start the better the outcomes. Interesting note is Korea was saying they have almost no cases of Autism. Then the medical and scientific research conducted in Korea showed they had just as many children with Autism they just went undiagnosed medically.
- pg_is_a_butt 12y ago
  "Autism is a thing scientifically and medically." i don't think you understand how "science" works. you're an idiot.
- drzaiusapelord 12y ago
  >Interesting note is Korea was saying they have almost no cases of Autism. The same way Iran has no homosexuals. The stigma in those cultures are so strong, the condition is denied or re-routed into something more culturally pleasing. In Iran homosexuals are often given the choice of lengthy prison sentences or gender re-assignment surgery. In Korea, autism is swept under the rug, until fairly recently. In Japan, kids fall into "Hikikomori" or NEET categories and never seem to get the help they need.
- forrestthewoods 12y ago
  I agree with all the things you've said. Gonna throw a similar but slightly inverted anecdote out there as well. My sister is a PhD psychologist who works with children. She had to significantly reduce the number of children she forwards for ADHD testing because 100% of the time the result was "positive" and they were medicated. And she was sending in really borderline cases "just to be sure". Thinking she was being safe and responsible for the child's well being. Now she has to act as a blocker and only forward children who she is really, truly confident need it.

harperlee 12y ago

If it is useful, I don't know a lot about autism, and for me your comment is super cryptic. What are you trying to say? Isn't autism sort of a dimension? I've heard about "the autist spectre", and the prevalence in males, and that's the idea that I got.

pavel_lishin 12y ago
"The Autist Spectre" sounds a little like "The Holy Spirit". Did you mean "autism spectrum"?
- harperlee 12y ago
  Yes, sorry for that :) not being a native english speaker, I sort-of translated it (I guess I haven't seen it in english a lot).
VLM 12y ago
That would be "spectrum" as its quite smooth and analog. Unlike a medical condition like a broken bone where you either got two pieces or one and in between is kind of unlikely. Historically no test existed other than behavior observations. Oh look a cluster of behaviors, we'll call it a disease. That leads to some severe cultural problems like just medicating the hell out of people until their vegetate. Not a very nice thing to do. The highest functioning people aka closest to normal (whatever normal is...) tend to not appreciate being drugged into submission, eliminating any chance of higher level human functioning. (edited to emphasis the side effects of most medications for autism symptoms tend to be intensely punishing both physically and mentally) Its rather like obesity, there's quite a range and how much someone has and how much someone needs to be forcibly "fixed" is open to quite a bit of opinion. OP is correct in that they selected a group of very high functioning people and controls, so what if anything that would have to do with low functioning people is mysterious and its quite possible they have little in common other than symptoms / behaviors. So saying "we can detect autism" is kind of like saying "we can fix broken computers". Well, define broken computers narrowly enough and ... On the other hand OP may not have read the article because OP is claiming "we can't" and similar, when "we now can". At least in a highly restricted setting with specially selected test subjects. It does not appear to be a magic bullet along the lines of a glucose tolerance test being pretty effective at diagnosing diabetes.
- darkarmani 12y ago
  > Historically no test existed other than behavior observations. Oh look a cluster of behaviors, we'll call it a disease. What medical literature calls it a disease? I've only ever heard it called a disorder. Why wouldn't they classify a bunch of behaviors under the same umbrella? They've gotten better and better at subdividing the class of disorders. I'm not sure i understand the problem with grouping related disorders together. > That leads to some severe cultural problems like just medicating the hell out of people until their vegetate. Not a very nice thing to do. You can't blame cultural issues on the way medicine groups disorders. This isn't One Flew Over the Coo-coos Nest. > someone needs to be forcibly "fixed" is open to quite a bit of opinion. Jesus Christ! Some sympathy for parents and caregivers. You act like they don't want what is best for their children. > OP is correct in that they selected a group of very high functioning people and controls, so what if anything that would have to do with low functioning people is mysterious and its quite possible they have little in common other than symptoms / behaviors. I'm not sure what you want. You don't like them grouping based on observable behaviors, but you are negative at them trying to find markers through fMRI. If anything, if it works on high functioning patients who have less noticeable behaviors, it is more likely to work on low functioning patients as long as they can understand the tasks. The difference in brain activity should be greater in low-functioning patients (although the algorithm needs to be trained on that set of data). > So saying "we can detect autism" is kind of like saying "we can fix broken computers". Well, define broken computers narrowly enough and ... It's the opposite of that. They've proved finding differences in high functioning "computers" so it should follow that finding differences in low functioning "computers" is easier (if you can find a way to get cooperation). > It does not appear to be a magic bullet along the lines of a glucose tolerance test being pretty effective at diagnosing diabetes. There was only 34 individuals in the experiment. It needs a tremendous amount of further testing. From the article: "Despite the very high sensitivity and specificity of the approach (33/34 or 97% of participants classified correctly), the study has clear limitations. First, the current paradigm, requiring significant cooperation during thoughts about social interactions, would be difficult to apply to participants with lower-functioning autism. Second, it is not yet known whether this type of classification can differentiate autism from other special populations, such as those with other developmental and neurological disorders. Furthermore, it would be desirable to develop a neurosemantic screening battery that contains a variety of items capable of evoking altered representations in a number of psychiatric disorders, along with a classifier that accurately identifies the disorder of individual participants. Each disorder could then be identified or diagnosed on the basis of its own characteristic alterations of thought. Because of the many co-morbidities among psychiatric disorders, one might expect classification of some individuals into more than one category. Fortunately, these limitations have the potential of being overcome through further research efforts."
spain 12y ago
>I've heard about "the autist spectre" Now I want to see someone draw this.

baldfat 12y ago

Autism is a catch all just like Cancer is a catch all. It works to get you into the ball park. Yes you are 100% right BUT also 100% wrong (just semantics I don't know if we really disagree) there are subsets of Autism and Autism is a thing scientifically and medically. Just like depression is a thing that you can't get a specific test for doesn't mean it isn't a thing. Having adopted two boys with a very mild form of Autism called Aspergers, most doctors use to use the term High Functioning Autism. You can also have sever Autism, AKA low functioning Autism. When working with children or parenting I can specifically look at where they are. So while every person is unique you can be categorized as high functioning or low functioning autism and given many other sub-categories. The only reason why I say this is that many people dismiss early diagnosis and then their child doesn't get early intervention. The earlier the interventions start the better the outcomes. Interesting note is Korea was saying they have almost no cases of Autism. Then the medical and scientific research conducted in Korea showed they had just as many children with Autism they just went undiagnosed medically.

pg_is_a_butt 12y ago
"Autism is a thing scientifically and medically." i don't think you understand how "science" works. you're an idiot.
drzaiusapelord 12y ago
>Interesting note is Korea was saying they have almost no cases of Autism. The same way Iran has no homosexuals. The stigma in those cultures are so strong, the condition is denied or re-routed into something more culturally pleasing. In Iran homosexuals are often given the choice of lengthy prison sentences or gender re-assignment surgery. In Korea, autism is swept under the rug, until fairly recently. In Japan, kids fall into "Hikikomori" or NEET categories and never seem to get the help they need.
forrestthewoods 12y ago
I agree with all the things you've said. Gonna throw a similar but slightly inverted anecdote out there as well. My sister is a PhD psychologist who works with children. She had to significantly reduce the number of children she forwards for ADHD testing because 100% of the time the result was "positive" and they were medicated. And she was sending in really borderline cases "just to be sure". Thinking she was being safe and responsible for the child's well being. Now she has to act as a blocker and only forward children who she is really, truly confident need it.