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This doesn't take away from your point at all, but I just wanted to point out that: > I can confidently pick up an apple, walk to the register, and expect to p

This doesn't take away from your point at all, but I just wanted to point out that: > I can confidently pick up an apple, walk to the register, and expect to pay a dollar. This is true in most of the world, but not in the US, where you don't know what you're paying until you reach the checkout counter.

thaumasiotes 12y ago
Well, you can weigh the apple yourself on the scales that occur all throughout the produce section... but yeah, I'd be surprised to see a flat rate for fruit by species no matter the size. Fruit is sold by weight, not count, in China too.
- Someone1234 12y ago
  That wasn't their point. In most of the world if a product's price tag says X then you pay exactly X at the register (e.g. £2 sandwich costs exactly £2 in cash, you hand then exactly £2 and leave). In the US that is not the case. Almost everything has a "hidden fee." You go buy a $2 sandwich but pay $2 + 6% ($2.12), if you get food in a restaurant you pay $price + 15-20%, an advertised $30/month cell phone plan is actually $45 after "taxes and fees," and so on... Within Europe/EU in particular these types of hidden fees are actively combatted. Just within the last few years a few airlines (e.g. Easyjet) got into trouble for charging both a credit card or debit card fee (approx. £3-5) which wasn't reasonably avoidable and wasn't mentioned in their adverts. The US in general is rather consumer hostile on the grounds of "business freedom."
  - thaumasiotes 12y ago
    Try to buy an apple in California and see whether the sales tax was included in the price ;) I have a two-part theory as to the advertising of prices exclusive of sales tax (which, again, doesn't apply to the apple example, for those HN readers who live in Silicon Valley); it goes like this: 1. Companies that sell products out of more than one store would like to use the same advertising everywhere, instead of making one ad per sales tax region they're present in. 2. This causes everyone to have to advertise prices the same way. Actually, now I'm curious what the tax scheme was when you ordered something out of the Sears catalog. Most of your examples have something going for them, but this one > an advertised $30/month cell phone plan is actually $45 after "taxes and fees," is something I've never heard of. All of my US cell phone plans advertised the exact price they charged.
    - Someone1234 12y ago
      > is something I've never heard of. All of my US cell phone plans advertised the exact price they charged. Like hell they are. Here's a 1:1 copy/paste from a recent AT&T bill (only modified for formatting, and <Local> for privacy reasons): Surcharges & Fees Administrative Fee $0.61 Computer Aided Dispatch Surcharge $0.06 Federal Universal Service Charge $0.82 Municipal License Surcharge $0.59 Regulatory Cost Recovery Charge $0.66 Relay Service Device Fund Surcharge $0.02 <Local> Universal Service $0.10 Total Surcharges & Fees $2.86 And: Government Fees & Taxes City District Sales Tax - Telecom $0.08 City Sales Tax - Telecom $0.18 County Sales Tax - Telecom $0.05 Local Wireless 911 Surcharge $0.61 <Local> State Sales Tax - Telecom $0.81 Unified Statewide 911 Charge $0.09 Total Government Fees & Taxes $1.82 These are charged on top of their headline rates. Some of these are federal fees so aren't likely avoidable no matter where you happen to live.
      - dmdeller 12y ago
        Prepaid plans across all US carriers generally have all taxes and fees included in the advertised price, except for standard sales tax (if your state/locality normally charges it).
      - thaumasiotes 12y ago
        You don't have to be charged like that if you don't want to. That's not a problem with the US, it's a problem with your phone service.
  - HeyLaughingBoy 12y ago
    It's far from "a hidden fee." You simply have to know the rules. In some states, there is sales tax. In others, none. Sales tax may or may not be applied to clothing depending on state. Sales tax may or may not be applied to food, or only some kinds of food (e.g., alcohol always taxed), or only to food above a certain threshold. All in all there's nothing hidden about sales tax. It shouldn't be a surprise that people are expected to know how the sales tax system in their state works when they are interacting with it every day.
    - nhaehnle 12y ago
      Your attempted defense of the US system is ineffective because it applies to all hidden fees. Any company ever that uses trickery to load additional fees on you could say, "well, you simply have to know the rules."
    - deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
    - Someone1234 12y ago
      Is it in the price tag? No. Therefore hidden. There's nothing else to say on that topic. I won't further debate what is or is not a "hidden fee." That's my definition, if it isn't in the headline price and is unavoidable then it is a hidden fee.
    - umeshunni 12y ago
      >> It's far from "a hidden fee." You simply have to know the rules. Sure. And the same could be said for airline pricing. You could 'know the rules' and look up fare buckets, availability and pricing on services like expertflyer or kvs.
    - gizzlon 12y ago
      > It's far from "a hidden fee." You simply have to know the rules But that's the same thing! If people don't know or understand the rules, the fee is hidden to them. You could say that people have should educate themselves, and my reply would be that there's infinite amount of complexity that could be added to the pricing if needed: "Oh, on cloudy Wednesdays, when Jupiter shines and the Yen is down.. it's 2$ extra"
  - npizzolato 12y ago
    Not that I disagree with you, but at least in the produce case, the real price is only a small percentage more than the price on the tag. On the other hand, airplane tickets fluctuate wildly in price and if you don't know the rules you could end up paying more than twice what you need to.
  - mikeash 12y ago
    I hope that was their point, because if "it's too hard to calculate tax yourself" was the point, it's a bad point, especially in the modern era of smartphones.
    - sib 12y ago
      I'm pretty sure that "it's too hard to calculate the tax yourself" was exactly the point...
    - markdown 12y ago
      It's less about being hard to calculate and more about being annoyingly unnecessary. A basket of 10 random goods in a grocery store may have wildly different taxes applicable to them.. there are sales taxes, sin taxes (on tobacco, alcohol, etc), and others. These aren't listed on the price tag, so are essentially hidden. Here in Fiji, I walk into a grocery store with $100 and can arrive at the checkout counter knowing I have $98 worth of goods and can expect $2 change for my bus fare home. I don't even have to know how to multiply numbers to figure this out... simple addition gets me there.
      - mikeash 12y ago
        I agree that it's annoying and unnecessary and I won't defend it, but that's rather different from "you don't know what you're paying." You only don't know what you're paying if you don't want to figure it out. All the necessary information is available.
- bliker 12y ago
  Surprisingly, in Denmark it is quite common to sell fruit like this.
- pimlottc 12y ago
  If you want to pick nits, some fruits and vegetables - like melons, pomegranate, pineapples, artichokes - are often sold by the head, not just by weight.
dllthomas 12y ago
That varies from store to store. I know the fruit stand off Hwy 1 near Moss Landing usually has 7 (small) artichokes for a dollar and similar.

thaumasiotes 12y ago

Well, you can weigh the apple yourself on the scales that occur all throughout the produce section... but yeah, I'd be surprised to see a flat rate for fruit by species no matter the size. Fruit is sold by weight, not count, in China too.

Someone1234 12y ago
That wasn't their point. In most of the world if a product's price tag says X then you pay exactly X at the register (e.g. £2 sandwich costs exactly £2 in cash, you hand then exactly £2 and leave). In the US that is not the case. Almost everything has a "hidden fee." You go buy a $2 sandwich but pay $2 + 6% ($2.12), if you get food in a restaurant you pay $price + 15-20%, an advertised $30/month cell phone plan is actually $45 after "taxes and fees," and so on... Within Europe/EU in particular these types of hidden fees are actively combatted. Just within the last few years a few airlines (e.g. Easyjet) got into trouble for charging both a credit card or debit card fee (approx. £3-5) which wasn't reasonably avoidable and wasn't mentioned in their adverts. The US in general is rather consumer hostile on the grounds of "business freedom."
- thaumasiotes 12y ago
  Try to buy an apple in California and see whether the sales tax was included in the price ;) I have a two-part theory as to the advertising of prices exclusive of sales tax (which, again, doesn't apply to the apple example, for those HN readers who live in Silicon Valley); it goes like this: 1. Companies that sell products out of more than one store would like to use the same advertising everywhere, instead of making one ad per sales tax region they're present in. 2. This causes everyone to have to advertise prices the same way. Actually, now I'm curious what the tax scheme was when you ordered something out of the Sears catalog. Most of your examples have something going for them, but this one > an advertised $30/month cell phone plan is actually $45 after "taxes and fees," is something I've never heard of. All of my US cell phone plans advertised the exact price they charged.
  - Someone1234 12y ago
    > is something I've never heard of. All of my US cell phone plans advertised the exact price they charged. Like hell they are. Here's a 1:1 copy/paste from a recent AT&T bill (only modified for formatting, and <Local> for privacy reasons): Surcharges & Fees Administrative Fee $0.61 Computer Aided Dispatch Surcharge $0.06 Federal Universal Service Charge $0.82 Municipal License Surcharge $0.59 Regulatory Cost Recovery Charge $0.66 Relay Service Device Fund Surcharge $0.02 <Local> Universal Service $0.10 Total Surcharges & Fees $2.86 And: Government Fees & Taxes City District Sales Tax - Telecom $0.08 City Sales Tax - Telecom $0.18 County Sales Tax - Telecom $0.05 Local Wireless 911 Surcharge $0.61 <Local> State Sales Tax - Telecom $0.81 Unified Statewide 911 Charge $0.09 Total Government Fees & Taxes $1.82 These are charged on top of their headline rates. Some of these are federal fees so aren't likely avoidable no matter where you happen to live.
    - dmdeller 12y ago
      Prepaid plans across all US carriers generally have all taxes and fees included in the advertised price, except for standard sales tax (if your state/locality normally charges it).
    - thaumasiotes 12y ago
      You don't have to be charged like that if you don't want to. That's not a problem with the US, it's a problem with your phone service.
- HeyLaughingBoy 12y ago
  It's far from "a hidden fee." You simply have to know the rules. In some states, there is sales tax. In others, none. Sales tax may or may not be applied to clothing depending on state. Sales tax may or may not be applied to food, or only some kinds of food (e.g., alcohol always taxed), or only to food above a certain threshold. All in all there's nothing hidden about sales tax. It shouldn't be a surprise that people are expected to know how the sales tax system in their state works when they are interacting with it every day.
  - nhaehnle 12y ago
    Your attempted defense of the US system is ineffective because it applies to all hidden fees. Any company ever that uses trickery to load additional fees on you could say, "well, you simply have to know the rules."
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  - Someone1234 12y ago
    Is it in the price tag? No. Therefore hidden. There's nothing else to say on that topic. I won't further debate what is or is not a "hidden fee." That's my definition, if it isn't in the headline price and is unavoidable then it is a hidden fee.
  - umeshunni 12y ago
    >> It's far from "a hidden fee." You simply have to know the rules. Sure. And the same could be said for airline pricing. You could 'know the rules' and look up fare buckets, availability and pricing on services like expertflyer or kvs.
  - gizzlon 12y ago
    > It's far from "a hidden fee." You simply have to know the rules But that's the same thing! If people don't know or understand the rules, the fee is hidden to them. You could say that people have should educate themselves, and my reply would be that there's infinite amount of complexity that could be added to the pricing if needed: "Oh, on cloudy Wednesdays, when Jupiter shines and the Yen is down.. it's 2$ extra"
- npizzolato 12y ago
  Not that I disagree with you, but at least in the produce case, the real price is only a small percentage more than the price on the tag. On the other hand, airplane tickets fluctuate wildly in price and if you don't know the rules you could end up paying more than twice what you need to.
- mikeash 12y ago
  I hope that was their point, because if "it's too hard to calculate tax yourself" was the point, it's a bad point, especially in the modern era of smartphones.
  - sib 12y ago
    I'm pretty sure that "it's too hard to calculate the tax yourself" was exactly the point...
  - markdown 12y ago
    It's less about being hard to calculate and more about being annoyingly unnecessary. A basket of 10 random goods in a grocery store may have wildly different taxes applicable to them.. there are sales taxes, sin taxes (on tobacco, alcohol, etc), and others. These aren't listed on the price tag, so are essentially hidden. Here in Fiji, I walk into a grocery store with $100 and can arrive at the checkout counter knowing I have $98 worth of goods and can expect $2 change for my bus fare home. I don't even have to know how to multiply numbers to figure this out... simple addition gets me there.
    - mikeash 12y ago
      I agree that it's annoying and unnecessary and I won't defend it, but that's rather different from "you don't know what you're paying." You only don't know what you're paying if you don't want to figure it out. All the necessary information is available.
bliker 12y ago
Surprisingly, in Denmark it is quite common to sell fruit like this.
pimlottc 12y ago
If you want to pick nits, some fruits and vegetables - like melons, pomegranate, pineapples, artichokes - are often sold by the head, not just by weight.

dllthomas 12y ago

That varies from store to store. I know the fruit stand off Hwy 1 near Moss Landing usually has 7 (small) artichokes for a dollar and similar.