7 ms·

After World War II, communists, who had been on the right side of the conflict, got enormous power. This eventually percolated in the education system, and now

After World War II, communists, who had been on the right side of the conflict, got enormous power. This eventually percolated in the education system, and now France is left with a few generations that have been force fed progressive propaganda from an early age. Combine that with a more ancient bend for Jacobinism and technocracy and you have the current situation. Very powerful unions who can lock down reform, and a population who polls to the left of Cuba in terms of political opinions. Ce pays est foutu.

mahouse 12y ago
If you have to choose between a conspiration of communists and jacobinists, and normal people that just disagree with you...
- murbard2 12y ago
  Nowhere have I mentioned a conspiracy.
- icebraining 12y ago
  Communists aren't normal people?
  - mahouse 12y ago
    Not that the person I replied to was treating them as such. I'm a socialist myself so I feel sympathy for a communist, even if I don't agree with him.
    - murbard2 12y ago
      Of course they are normal people, that's what makes it terrifying. Communism killed hundred of millions of people. And yes, the French communist party supported Stalinism for a long time.
      - megalodon 12y ago
        Communism - the utopian ideology - didn't kill hundreds of millions of people, because it has never existed. It has been used several times as a means to reach power, after which the dictator(ships) have chosen to either adopt it to his/their own liking (Stalinism, Marxist-Leninism, Trotskyism, <insert>ism) or practically abolish it as is the case with modern-day China. Fully developed communism is supposed to (alas, probably never will) be 'a stateless, classless and moneyless society, structured upon common ownership of the means of production.' [1] That's about as far from Stalinism you can get. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism
_delirium 12y ago
Ah yes, the famous French communist leaders of the post-war era: De Gaulle, Pompidou, d'Estaing...
- murbard2 12y ago
  De Gaulle had to strike a deal with the communists. They may not have been at the very top of the power, but they certainly were in governments.
  - rjaco31 12y ago
    What are you talking about? The only time France had communists in government was in 1981..
    - murbard2 12y ago
      Nope. http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gouvernement_provisoire_de_la_R%C3%A9publique_fran%C3%A7aise http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gouvernement_provisoire_de_la_R... Also the PCF had 27% of the seats in the Assemblee Constituante of the 4th republic.
    - deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
blackRust 12y ago
After $event$, $bad_political_ideology$, who had been on the right side of $event$, got enormous power. This eventually percolated in the education system, and now $country$ is left with a few generations that have been force fed $bad_ideas$ propaganda from an early age. Combine that with a more ancient bend for $historical_ideology$ and $class_system_perspective$ and you have the current situation. Very powerful $group$ who can lock down $action$, and a population who polls to the $wrong_side$ of $example_country_on_wrong_side$ in terms of political opinions. Ce pays est foutu.
aikah 12y ago
Mais ou est passé l'optimisme français /s Seriously.I can agree with you(expect for the communist finger pointing,i mean the whole political class is responsible for the current situation).What is really stupid,is that,you could create a lot of job by easing a few regulations here and there.The problem is,the state created the issue with taxis at first place,with the limited license attribution.You shouldn't cap taxi licenses.Yes,they should follow all requirements needed,be inspected on regular basis and have the proper insurance.By I see little justification for the license cap thing. You want people not to use their own car.And by the way there is that auto-lib thing,so why cap the taxi pool? That can be said about a lot of other fields too.You want things to run smoothly,you want people to be able to rent a flat without having to produce 10+ years of payslips, you want people to be mobile to be able to relocate to find work easily, ... you want to create an proper environment for employment,investment,... and not just protect "your friends".That's not just a "communist" issue,all parties do the same mistake,but people need to want it as well.Today,I think we're too afraid of the future,and have some kind of "romanticized" vision of France that never really existed,and,that is also important,Paris is too snob, and self centered as well.So giving more power(and proper financing) to the regions is something important as well.
- murbard2 12y ago
  The optimism moved out. I spent the first 23 years of my life in Paris, before happily moving to NY about 10 years ago. My parents both vote for the Socialist party and pretty much everyone I interacted with growing up was heavily left wing. It's not just cab licensing, that happens everywhere. What's different about France is that a few years ago the government tried to increase the cap, and cabs started grid locking Paris in protest. What did the government do? They caved. That type of thing would not happen in a place like NYC. Why did they cave? Public opinion was after all against taxi cabs which are fairly unpopular in Paris. However, handling the issue with force would have turned public opinion against the government, and would have triggered the other syndicalist organisation to join in protest. We're back at the root of the problem. Public opinion in France is strongly anchored to the left, and yes, it has to do with the far left's influence on the Education Nationale. Open a French high-school textbook in economics and you will see large sections devoted to Marxism, an economic theory that pretty much no modern economist support.
mercurial 12y ago
> a population who polls to the left of Cuba in terms of political opinions. This no doubt accounts for the success of the extreme right wing. > France is left with a few generations that have been force fed progressive propaganda from an early age. Ah, yes. Like this fantastic law about the positive effects of colonialism? Clearly, conservatives would totally above any kind of revisionism... Anyway, good luck in your country of adoption. Hope you don't get seriously sick.
- murbard2 12y ago
  The French extreme right wing takes its root in Poujadism. The closest equivalent would be something like Peronism. It's basically a mix of protectionist ideas mixed with a lot of welfare programs. It tend to be reactionary on many social issues, but it is anchored firmly on the left. Most supporters of the FN today are blue collar, and it's not surprise that one of their 'thinkers', Alain Soral came from the far left - they're pretty similar. As far as the attitude of French people on economic issues, just look at the polls instead of making ad hominem an quips http://www.latribune.fr/actualites/economie/20110125trib000595445/les-francais-champions-du-monde-de-l-anti-capitalisme.html http://www.latribune.fr/actualites/economie/20110125trib0005... http://www.croissance-responsable.fr/commissions/sondage-les-francais-et-leconomie-de-marche/ http://www.croissance-responsable.fr/commissions/sondage-les... http://www.ifop.fr/?option=com_publication&type=poll&id=2637 http://www.ifop.fr/?option=com_publication&type=poll&id=2637
  - mercurial 12y ago
    The FN has historically been a mix of economic liberalism and nationalism. They may surf on a more socialist way because it's fashionable nowadays, but that's all. I looked briefly at the polls you linked to. People think that the current economic system profits unfairly to a small minority? Is that being far left now? A third thinking capitalism is not the way forward becomes "the population polls left of Cuba"?
    - murbard2 12y ago
      The FN has a brief foray in economic liberalism in the 80's which was primarily an opportunistic way to capitalize on the shock of having the socialists in power. It didn't last and the success you allude too came after they turned towards an anti-capitalist and anti-free market rhetoric. There's a specific poll that I'm trying to dig which was about attitudes towards free markets and capitalism where French citizens polled among the least favorable country in the world, below Cubans. I didn't just make it up as a quip.

mahouse 12y ago

If you have to choose between a conspiration of communists and jacobinists, and normal people that just disagree with you...

murbard2 12y ago
Nowhere have I mentioned a conspiracy.
icebraining 12y ago
Communists aren't normal people?
- mahouse 12y ago
  Not that the person I replied to was treating them as such. I'm a socialist myself so I feel sympathy for a communist, even if I don't agree with him.
  - murbard2 12y ago
    Of course they are normal people, that's what makes it terrifying. Communism killed hundred of millions of people. And yes, the French communist party supported Stalinism for a long time.
    - megalodon 12y ago
      Communism - the utopian ideology - didn't kill hundreds of millions of people, because it has never existed. It has been used several times as a means to reach power, after which the dictator(ships) have chosen to either adopt it to his/their own liking (Stalinism, Marxist-Leninism, Trotskyism, <insert>ism) or practically abolish it as is the case with modern-day China. Fully developed communism is supposed to (alas, probably never will) be 'a stateless, classless and moneyless society, structured upon common ownership of the means of production.' [1] That's about as far from Stalinism you can get. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism

_delirium 12y ago

Ah yes, the famous French communist leaders of the post-war era: De Gaulle, Pompidou, d'Estaing...

murbard2 12y ago
De Gaulle had to strike a deal with the communists. They may not have been at the very top of the power, but they certainly were in governments.
- rjaco31 12y ago
  What are you talking about? The only time France had communists in government was in 1981..
  - murbard2 12y ago
    Nope. http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gouvernement_provisoire_de_la_R%C3%A9publique_fran%C3%A7aise http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gouvernement_provisoire_de_la_R... Also the PCF had 27% of the seats in the Assemblee Constituante of the 4th republic.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]

blackRust 12y ago

After $event$, $bad_political_ideology$, who had been on the right side of $event$, got enormous power. This eventually percolated in the education system, and now $country$ is left with a few generations that have been force fed $bad_ideas$ propaganda from an early age. Combine that with a more ancient bend for $historical_ideology$ and $class_system_perspective$ and you have the current situation. Very powerful $group$ who can lock down $action$, and a population who polls to the $wrong_side$ of $example_country_on_wrong_side$ in terms of political opinions. Ce pays est foutu.

aikah 12y ago

Mais ou est passé l'optimisme français /s Seriously.I can agree with you(expect for the communist finger pointing,i mean the whole political class is responsible for the current situation).What is really stupid,is that,you could create a lot of job by easing a few regulations here and there.The problem is,the state created the issue with taxis at first place,with the limited license attribution.You shouldn't cap taxi licenses.Yes,they should follow all requirements needed,be inspected on regular basis and have the proper insurance.By I see little justification for the license cap thing. You want people not to use their own car.And by the way there is that auto-lib thing,so why cap the taxi pool? That can be said about a lot of other fields too.You want things to run smoothly,you want people to be able to rent a flat without having to produce 10+ years of payslips, you want people to be mobile to be able to relocate to find work easily, ... you want to create an proper environment for employment,investment,... and not just protect "your friends".That's not just a "communist" issue,all parties do the same mistake,but people need to want it as well.Today,I think we're too afraid of the future,and have some kind of "romanticized" vision of France that never really existed,and,that is also important,Paris is too snob, and self centered as well.So giving more power(and proper financing) to the regions is something important as well.

murbard2 12y ago
The optimism moved out. I spent the first 23 years of my life in Paris, before happily moving to NY about 10 years ago. My parents both vote for the Socialist party and pretty much everyone I interacted with growing up was heavily left wing. It's not just cab licensing, that happens everywhere. What's different about France is that a few years ago the government tried to increase the cap, and cabs started grid locking Paris in protest. What did the government do? They caved. That type of thing would not happen in a place like NYC. Why did they cave? Public opinion was after all against taxi cabs which are fairly unpopular in Paris. However, handling the issue with force would have turned public opinion against the government, and would have triggered the other syndicalist organisation to join in protest. We're back at the root of the problem. Public opinion in France is strongly anchored to the left, and yes, it has to do with the far left's influence on the Education Nationale. Open a French high-school textbook in economics and you will see large sections devoted to Marxism, an economic theory that pretty much no modern economist support.

mercurial 12y ago

> a population who polls to the left of Cuba in terms of political opinions. This no doubt accounts for the success of the extreme right wing. > France is left with a few generations that have been force fed progressive propaganda from an early age. Ah, yes. Like this fantastic law about the positive effects of colonialism? Clearly, conservatives would totally above any kind of revisionism... Anyway, good luck in your country of adoption. Hope you don't get seriously sick.

murbard2 12y ago
The French extreme right wing takes its root in Poujadism. The closest equivalent would be something like Peronism. It's basically a mix of protectionist ideas mixed with a lot of welfare programs. It tend to be reactionary on many social issues, but it is anchored firmly on the left. Most supporters of the FN today are blue collar, and it's not surprise that one of their 'thinkers', Alain Soral came from the far left - they're pretty similar. As far as the attitude of French people on economic issues, just look at the polls instead of making ad hominem an quips http://www.latribune.fr/actualites/economie/20110125trib000595445/les-francais-champions-du-monde-de-l-anti-capitalisme.html http://www.latribune.fr/actualites/economie/20110125trib0005... http://www.croissance-responsable.fr/commissions/sondage-les-francais-et-leconomie-de-marche/ http://www.croissance-responsable.fr/commissions/sondage-les... http://www.ifop.fr/?option=com_publication&type=poll&id=2637 http://www.ifop.fr/?option=com_publication&type=poll&id=2637
- mercurial 12y ago
  The FN has historically been a mix of economic liberalism and nationalism. They may surf on a more socialist way because it's fashionable nowadays, but that's all. I looked briefly at the polls you linked to. People think that the current economic system profits unfairly to a small minority? Is that being far left now? A third thinking capitalism is not the way forward becomes "the population polls left of Cuba"?
  - murbard2 12y ago
    The FN has a brief foray in economic liberalism in the 80's which was primarily an opportunistic way to capitalize on the shock of having the socialists in power. It didn't last and the success you allude too came after they turned towards an anti-capitalist and anti-free market rhetoric. There's a specific poll that I'm trying to dig which was about attitudes towards free markets and capitalism where French citizens polled among the least favorable country in the world, below Cubans. I didn't just make it up as a quip.