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The Economist article you mention was even harsher, in most European countries the statistic is ZERO. http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21636033-united-sta

The Economist article you mention was even harsher, in most European countries the statistic is ZERO. http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21636033-united-states-needs-overhaul-its-law-enforcement-system-americas-police-trial http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21636033-united-states... "American law enforcement is unusually lethal: even the partial numbers show that the police shot and killed at least 458 people last year. By comparison, those in England and Wales shot and killed no one." I'm a HUGE proponent of nonlethal alternatives, I don't understand why there isn't massive funding for better tasers.

hga 12y ago
There are no "nonlethal" alternatives, just less lethal as the words of art put it. One of the many reasons I haven't yet invested in pepper spray is that the threshold for my using it should be the same as for my handgun. Any time you get into physical combat things can get seriously ugly, see e.g. Eric Garner. As for US vs. European statistics, you always need to make sure each is honest (e.g. are they counting all populations in their countries? Counterwise, remove the US south and we look rather European), and there's no question that the US is flatly more violent, e.g. remove all homicides with guns and our rate is still higher.
- jacalata 12y ago
  Wow, your first thought is that Europe might be underestimating how many people are killed by police, not the USA? The USA doesn't even count that number.
  - hga 12y ago
    I don't automatically trust any government's statistics. In addition, I know that you have to investigate before comparing what are ostensibly the same statistics coming from different countries.
    - allendoerfer 12y ago
      You can not precautionary discredit statistics or studies without evidence. When you accuse someone or something of being wrong in public, show some evidence. This makes you look like you have no arguments left.
- mikeash 12y ago
  It's theoretically possible to cause someone's death just by turning on a siren or flashing lights at them. Does that mean that the threshold for using those things should be the same as for a gun? Even if the threshold is the same, that doesn't mean that the pepper spray isn't a much superior alternative, especially for people who are supposed to be protecting civilians, including civilians they're arresting. Do you have a citation about the statistics becoming European if you remove the US south? This PDF breaks down police-related deaths by region: http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/ard0309st.pdf http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/ard0309st.pdf And while the South is higher than other regions, the others are hardly what I'd call "low".
  - hga 12y ago
    I was unclear in the "we look rather European" bit, that's for all violent crime and/or homicides, not just police caused ones, for which as I understand the statistics are iffy, i.e. there's no requirement to report them.
- GFischer 12y ago
  I don't understand your phrase "the threshold for my using it should be the same as for my handgun" I'm going to buy pepper spray soon, and I understood that it was basically nonlethal. I've been mugged a few times already, and I do believe it would have helped in at least one case (in which I absolutely would not have used a gun). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pepper_spray http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pepper_spray
  - hga 12y ago
    Technically, as I say above, it's viewed as "less lethal". It can definitely kill, and I've read people have been charged for using it in what seemed to be legit self-defense. It's definitely force and not something to be used casually.
noer 12y ago
Tasers have devolved from a less-lethal gun alternative to an electro shock based compliance tool, nothing more than a cattle prod used on humans.

hga 12y ago

There are no "nonlethal" alternatives, just less lethal as the words of art put it. One of the many reasons I haven't yet invested in pepper spray is that the threshold for my using it should be the same as for my handgun. Any time you get into physical combat things can get seriously ugly, see e.g. Eric Garner. As for US vs. European statistics, you always need to make sure each is honest (e.g. are they counting all populations in their countries? Counterwise, remove the US south and we look rather European), and there's no question that the US is flatly more violent, e.g. remove all homicides with guns and our rate is still higher.

jacalata 12y ago
Wow, your first thought is that Europe might be underestimating how many people are killed by police, not the USA? The USA doesn't even count that number.
- hga 12y ago
  I don't automatically trust any government's statistics. In addition, I know that you have to investigate before comparing what are ostensibly the same statistics coming from different countries.
  - allendoerfer 12y ago
    You can not precautionary discredit statistics or studies without evidence. When you accuse someone or something of being wrong in public, show some evidence. This makes you look like you have no arguments left.
mikeash 12y ago
It's theoretically possible to cause someone's death just by turning on a siren or flashing lights at them. Does that mean that the threshold for using those things should be the same as for a gun? Even if the threshold is the same, that doesn't mean that the pepper spray isn't a much superior alternative, especially for people who are supposed to be protecting civilians, including civilians they're arresting. Do you have a citation about the statistics becoming European if you remove the US south? This PDF breaks down police-related deaths by region: http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/ard0309st.pdf http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/ard0309st.pdf And while the South is higher than other regions, the others are hardly what I'd call "low".
- hga 12y ago
  I was unclear in the "we look rather European" bit, that's for all violent crime and/or homicides, not just police caused ones, for which as I understand the statistics are iffy, i.e. there's no requirement to report them.
GFischer 12y ago
I don't understand your phrase "the threshold for my using it should be the same as for my handgun" I'm going to buy pepper spray soon, and I understood that it was basically nonlethal. I've been mugged a few times already, and I do believe it would have helped in at least one case (in which I absolutely would not have used a gun). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pepper_spray http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pepper_spray
- hga 12y ago
  Technically, as I say above, it's viewed as "less lethal". It can definitely kill, and I've read people have been charged for using it in what seemed to be legit self-defense. It's definitely force and not something to be used casually.

noer 12y ago

Tasers have devolved from a less-lethal gun alternative to an electro shock based compliance tool, nothing more than a cattle prod used on humans.