5 ms·

This is logical. Engineers sell their talent for peanuts to technology companies, who then own all their work that automates tasks, which makes unqualified work

This is logical. Engineers sell their talent for peanuts to technology companies, who then own all their work that automates tasks, which makes unqualified workers worthless. A lot of you might bitch and moan about it (you're "socially conscious", a socialist or whatever)... well, you're enabling this, so know your responsibility in it. The big problem with this trend in the long term is that big masses of uneducated people might take control eventually; populist revolutions and communist-like rule of a Stalin-like redneck dictator is not at all out of the question. They may confiscate the technology, but they can't simply make a worthless worker do worthy work so they might be paid barely enough, for doing nothing worthy, an aberrant lifestyle anyway. And we may very well get there without a bloody revolution too, with most oblivious to the slow shift even.

logn 12y ago
Engineers are subject to the same problems of labor scarcity (or lack thereof) as the people whose jobs are automated. Engineers are also automating their own jobs. If they could sell their talents for more than peanuts, they would; many try and fail ("striking out on their own"). I think a social awakening is more likely than a populist revolt. Simple solutions such as raising effective corporate tax rates, banning money from politics, and minimum wage reforms could avert revolution. > might be paid barely enough, for doing nothing worthy, an aberrant lifestyle anyway I don't agree this is the direction. And if we do head there, it's more likely due to total automation and AI (rather than a Stalin-like ruler). In that future, people won't starve in the streets, they'll be working subsidized jobs. And that sounds a lot like today's reality anyway (not a sci-fi dystopia).
- alvarosm 12y ago
  I'm thinking more of those who make, say $200k, and are content with solving puzzles all day long without caring for much else. Those who can make a difference who don't care what difference they're making. Awakening is the opposite term for what that is. Rising the corporate tax until when? until businesses are barely profitable? that's effectively confiscating the technology and letting them run it more efficiently than the state can, that's the road to the new communism. Minimum wage reform, same thing. Plus, this is all economic suicide if we look at the rest of the economy, not just the automation-enablers, but that would be going too off-topic here. Yes, this all sounds like today because we're on our way to that dark future. And we're calling it awakening apparently, see why I said people would be oblivious to the shift?
  - logn 12y ago
    Many tech companies pay 0% in taxes. Some pay a negative tax rate. The wealthy pay about 10-20% effective taxes. The tax burden has been shifted to the middle class. And this isn't considering inflation, which taxes everyone except those on the inside (basically, banks and owners of gov't contracting companies). Fixing these problems isn't communism. It's a return to mid-20th century American policies. With this type of reform in place, it's a lot easier to envision a nice future where some people get $200K/yr to solve puzzles, and others get a $40K/yr minimum wage to blog about their day. Edit: and aside from basic income or minimum wage, this is how I think a lot of people should be paid -> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8708820 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8708820
    - alvarosm 12y ago
      And it will keep on being shifted to the middle class until it disappears. The "rich" don't have enough money to maintain a subsidized economy, the middle class does. As for the big companies, they use so-called tax loopholes to defer tax payment and keep foreign-sourced income offshore. They'd get taxed when/if that money reenters the US. And you can be sure they'll be taxed eventually as uncle Sam gets more needy to run a subsidized economy. State interventionism with FATCA and so on will only grow until there will be no way for them to avoid taxation.
    - jerf 12y ago
      "The tax burden has been shifted to the middle class." That does not correspond with the latest news I've seen: http://www.aei.org/publication/new-cbo-study-shows-rich-dont-just-pay-fair-share-pay-almost-everybodys-share/ http://www.aei.org/publication/new-cbo-study-shows-rich-dont...
      - logn 12y ago
        I wouldn't expect a conservative think tank to frame the issue any other way. He's an alternate take: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/22/chart-shows-corp-taxes-grossly-unfair_n_3321737.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/22/chart-shows-corp-ta... Payroll taxes now make up 35 percent of all federal government tax receipts, up from 11 percent in 1950. Corporate income taxes, meanwhile, now make up less than 10 percent of federal revenue, down from about 26 percent in 1950. Keep in mind, your article and mine are only counting federal taxes. The middle class pay a higher proportion of their income buying things than the rich, so they're hit harder by sales taxes. Same goes for property taxes. And many states tax low income workers on income even though the IRS cuts them a break. One should also factor in court costs and fines for petty crimes. There's gasoline tax and toll roads as well. These are all regressive. Edit: the shift I mean is from corporations and super wealthy to the middle class generally. I would agree that upper middle class (doctors, lawyers, etc) probably carry most of the weight on taxes and the lower middle class gets many breaks (for good reason, though).

logn 12y ago

Engineers are subject to the same problems of labor scarcity (or lack thereof) as the people whose jobs are automated. Engineers are also automating their own jobs. If they could sell their talents for more than peanuts, they would; many try and fail ("striking out on their own"). I think a social awakening is more likely than a populist revolt. Simple solutions such as raising effective corporate tax rates, banning money from politics, and minimum wage reforms could avert revolution. > might be paid barely enough, for doing nothing worthy, an aberrant lifestyle anyway I don't agree this is the direction. And if we do head there, it's more likely due to total automation and AI (rather than a Stalin-like ruler). In that future, people won't starve in the streets, they'll be working subsidized jobs. And that sounds a lot like today's reality anyway (not a sci-fi dystopia).

alvarosm 12y ago
I'm thinking more of those who make, say $200k, and are content with solving puzzles all day long without caring for much else. Those who can make a difference who don't care what difference they're making. Awakening is the opposite term for what that is. Rising the corporate tax until when? until businesses are barely profitable? that's effectively confiscating the technology and letting them run it more efficiently than the state can, that's the road to the new communism. Minimum wage reform, same thing. Plus, this is all economic suicide if we look at the rest of the economy, not just the automation-enablers, but that would be going too off-topic here. Yes, this all sounds like today because we're on our way to that dark future. And we're calling it awakening apparently, see why I said people would be oblivious to the shift?
- logn 12y ago
  Many tech companies pay 0% in taxes. Some pay a negative tax rate. The wealthy pay about 10-20% effective taxes. The tax burden has been shifted to the middle class. And this isn't considering inflation, which taxes everyone except those on the inside (basically, banks and owners of gov't contracting companies). Fixing these problems isn't communism. It's a return to mid-20th century American policies. With this type of reform in place, it's a lot easier to envision a nice future where some people get $200K/yr to solve puzzles, and others get a $40K/yr minimum wage to blog about their day. Edit: and aside from basic income or minimum wage, this is how I think a lot of people should be paid -> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8708820 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8708820
  - alvarosm 12y ago
    And it will keep on being shifted to the middle class until it disappears. The "rich" don't have enough money to maintain a subsidized economy, the middle class does. As for the big companies, they use so-called tax loopholes to defer tax payment and keep foreign-sourced income offshore. They'd get taxed when/if that money reenters the US. And you can be sure they'll be taxed eventually as uncle Sam gets more needy to run a subsidized economy. State interventionism with FATCA and so on will only grow until there will be no way for them to avoid taxation.
  - jerf 12y ago
    "The tax burden has been shifted to the middle class." That does not correspond with the latest news I've seen: http://www.aei.org/publication/new-cbo-study-shows-rich-dont-just-pay-fair-share-pay-almost-everybodys-share/ http://www.aei.org/publication/new-cbo-study-shows-rich-dont...
    - logn 12y ago
      I wouldn't expect a conservative think tank to frame the issue any other way. He's an alternate take: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/22/chart-shows-corp-taxes-grossly-unfair_n_3321737.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/22/chart-shows-corp-ta... Payroll taxes now make up 35 percent of all federal government tax receipts, up from 11 percent in 1950. Corporate income taxes, meanwhile, now make up less than 10 percent of federal revenue, down from about 26 percent in 1950. Keep in mind, your article and mine are only counting federal taxes. The middle class pay a higher proportion of their income buying things than the rich, so they're hit harder by sales taxes. Same goes for property taxes. And many states tax low income workers on income even though the IRS cuts them a break. One should also factor in court costs and fines for petty crimes. There's gasoline tax and toll roads as well. These are all regressive. Edit: the shift I mean is from corporations and super wealthy to the middle class generally. I would agree that upper middle class (doctors, lawyers, etc) probably carry most of the weight on taxes and the lower middle class gets many breaks (for good reason, though).