5 ms·

I am not a fan of GLAAD definition. I think it does more harm than good. Gender Dysphoria, the condition associated with transgender individuals, is most likely

by sarahj 12y ago

I am not a fan of GLAAD definition. I think it does more harm than good. Gender Dysphoria, the condition associated with transgender individuals, is most likely neurological in nature - that is to say, there are plenty of studies correlating sex-atypical differences in the brain with gender dysphoria. (http://transcience-project.org/brain_sex.html http://transcience-project.org/brain_sex.html) Lumping in cross-dressers and run-of-the-mill gender variance denies this very real condition the attention it deserves, it reduces it to a choice. There is nothing wrong with the choice, and people should have the right to express their gender however they choose, I just think that we need to be careful about maintaining a separation between gender dysphoria and gender variance. On the actual question at hand, clinical intake studies have been pretty consistent in this regard. The number of people who have gender dysphoria that becomes severe enough to prompt treatment (in western European countries) is about 1:10000 (for transgender women) and 1:27000 (for transgender men). (Judge, Ciaran, Claire O'Donovan, and Donal O'Shea. "Gender dysphoria-prevalence and co-morbidities in an Irish adult population." Neuroendocrine Science 5 (2014): 87) That being said it is difficult to estimate the number of individuals with gender dysphoria who choose not to seek treatment (or those who choose to self medicate). People like John are unfortunate, and a hopefully the bi-product of an age we are on our way out of. That being said, John is clearly not transgender, they may suffer from gender dysphoria, but they are not transgender. Today we have a much better understanding of gender dysphoria and have a number of long term studies which show hormonal and surgical transitioning to be an effective treatment (e.g Gorin-Lazard, A., Baumstarck, K., Boyer, L., Maquigneau, A., Gebleux, S., Penochet, J.-C., Pringuey, D., Albarel, F., Morange, I., Loundou, A., Berbis, J., Auquier, P., Lançon, C. and Bonierbale, M. (2012), Is Hormonal Therapy Associated with Better Quality of Life in Transsexuals? A Cross-Sectional Study. Journal of Sexual Medicine, 9: 531–541. doi: 10.1111/j.1743-6109.2011.02564.x). I “First you ask about what sex is on your birth certificate. Then later in the survey you ask, ‘What is your gender?’? - This, of course, doesn't work in first-world countries where gender dysphoria is treated like an intersex condition and the individuals are free to amend their birth certificates.

tjradcliffe 12y ago
Those incidence numbers strike me as implausibly low. I happen to know two transpeople fairly well by completely random chance. One is good friend of my (now adult) kids, whose parents are also friends of mine who I met through work, the other is an adult child of my girlfriend. Unless you hypothesize that for some reason I befriend people who have a vastly increased probability of having trans offspring, numbers like 1:10E4 give me a 1:200000 of being in this position. I would generously assume I know 25 people as well as I know these people, so the probability of finding two in that group who are trans would be 1E-4251E-4*24 = 0.000006. Tiny. Now, in a world with a few billion adults in it there are going to be a few tens of thousands of people like me, who know more then one transperson from completely unrelated means, but it would be interesting to know if anyone else here does. I'm pretty sure people in my situation are not as rare as those numbers would indicate.
- Kalium 12y ago
  I think it's worth considering that people with non-traditional sexual identities tend to concentrate in certain geographic areas. So perhaps your random selection is taking place over a highly self-sorted population.
  - ZanyProgrammer 12y ago
    Yeah, in general I think the HN commentariat is not remotely representative of society as a whole. Especially when it comes to the intersection of tech and sexuality.
- ddingus 12y ago
  I know a few, and my "know people well" metrics are similar to yours.
- gwillen 12y ago
  I know (at levels varying from 'friend' to 'acquaintance', so the field is more like 100-200 than your 25; but these are all people I have at least conversed with multiple times) two trans men and at least seven trans women (off the top of my head.) These are all people who are, at a minimum, currently taking prescribed hormones corresponding to their self-identified gender. But I understand that there may be a self-selection effect where a lot of trans women end up in technical fields, so my sample may well be biased.
brighteyes 12y ago
> there are plenty of studies correlating sex-typical differences in the brain with gender dysphoria. There are also plenty of studies showing the opposite, as well as studies showing trans people being, on average, somewhere in between the male and female averages (on the specific area of the brain observed - generally different in each study!). The fact is, we just don't know. And that's why GLAAD's definition is good. Trans people deserve respect and fair treatment regardless of what causes some people to be trans and others not to be trans. If we find out tomorrow that brain differences can't explain being trans, that doesn't change how trans people should be treated. And it will probably be quite some time before we have a good answer there. We still don't know why some people are gay and some aren't, for example, and that has received far more research interest. The answer to that question, and to the trans question, will likely be quite complex, scientifically. But ethically, the answer is simple - just treat people nicely regardless.
- sarahj 12y ago
  > There are also plenty of studies showing the opposite, as well as studies showing trans people being, on average, somewhere in between the male and female averages (on the specific area of the brain observed - generally different in each study!). The fact is, we just don't know. That should have been sex-atypical differences, which would accommodate for the "in-between" studies. Taken as a whole, the science is pretty clear, when looking at various parts of the brain, patients with gender dysphoria (both prior and after treatment) show differences from cisgender controls, and typically, those differences align with those of their identified gender. > And that's why GLAAD's definition is good. Trans people deserve respect and fair treatment regardless of what causes some people to be trans and others not to be trans. These two don't follow each other. Of course transgender people deserve respect and fair treatment, like all people. I just think we have to be careful when we conflate gender variance with gender dysphoria - one is a very evolving cultural concept, the other is a major contributor to suicide in transgender individuals.
  - Aloha 12y ago
    After dating a transwoman, I came away with the strong opinion about what being transgender is from a biological/psychological point of view. What I learned was - it boils down to is a missmatch between the software, and the wetware - the thing is, many people have this, many who are successful and happy in the body they have - but there are some, a minority of those afflicted who simply cannot deal with that missmatch - I don't know why they can't (up bringing, inability to extend beyond classic gender identity, something biological, not really sure) - but whatever the cause, they can't, and those are the folks that generally end up identifying as transgender, and going thru the process of transition to remove the discongruity between the hardware and software. I don't (well try not to, I'm only human) place a value judgement on it, its about finding your own happy place where you can flower into a good person.
spacehome 12y ago
> Gender Dysphoria ... is most likely neurological in nature As opposed to what?
- sarahj 12y ago
  Psychological. Many early theories tended along the line that gender dysphoria was an extension of sexual fetishistic behaviour. We know now this to be very wrong, but there are still many who advocate for this position.
  - shaftoe 12y ago
    I'm curious as to the distinction here. Can you explain? Either way sounds like something wired abnormally. I don't think people necessarily choose their sexual fetishes either, though gender dysphoria strikes me as more of a compulsion than a sexual thing.
    - sarahj 12y ago
      Sure. Although it is a vary leaky abstraction :) We used to consider depression as a psychological phenomena. That is, we used to think that we could make a person think their way out of it. Either though CBT or some other kind of psychological treatment. Since then we have learned that neurological factors, in particular neurochemistry which are correlated with depression. We now know a person cannot think their way out of depression - we have developed treatments with varying success, although we still have a way to go.
      - learc83 12y ago
        CBT, and medication have fairly similar efficacy rates for treatment of depression. So it's not true that "We now know a person cannot think their way out of depression."
        Amezarak 12y ago
        The argument doesn't make sense in the first place. Neurological problems are expressed psychologically and psychological problems are expressed neurologically. The brain will indeed literally rewire itself based on what you do and think. Which is not at all, of course, to say you can simply wish yourself out of depression. Indeed that's exactly what can make depression such a problem.

by sarahj 12y ago

tjradcliffe 12y ago

Those incidence numbers strike me as implausibly low. I happen to know two transpeople fairly well by completely random chance. One is good friend of my (now adult) kids, whose parents are also friends of mine who I met through work, the other is an adult child of my girlfriend. Unless you hypothesize that for some reason I befriend people who have a vastly increased probability of having trans offspring, numbers like 1:10E4 give me a 1:200000 of being in this position. I would generously assume I know 25 people as well as I know these people, so the probability of finding two in that group who are trans would be 1E-4251E-4*24 = 0.000006. Tiny. Now, in a world with a few billion adults in it there are going to be a few tens of thousands of people like me, who know more then one transperson from completely unrelated means, but it would be interesting to know if anyone else here does. I'm pretty sure people in my situation are not as rare as those numbers would indicate.

Kalium 12y ago
I think it's worth considering that people with non-traditional sexual identities tend to concentrate in certain geographic areas. So perhaps your random selection is taking place over a highly self-sorted population.
- ZanyProgrammer 12y ago
  Yeah, in general I think the HN commentariat is not remotely representative of society as a whole. Especially when it comes to the intersection of tech and sexuality.
ddingus 12y ago
I know a few, and my "know people well" metrics are similar to yours.
gwillen 12y ago
I know (at levels varying from 'friend' to 'acquaintance', so the field is more like 100-200 than your 25; but these are all people I have at least conversed with multiple times) two trans men and at least seven trans women (off the top of my head.) These are all people who are, at a minimum, currently taking prescribed hormones corresponding to their self-identified gender. But I understand that there may be a self-selection effect where a lot of trans women end up in technical fields, so my sample may well be biased.

brighteyes 12y ago

> there are plenty of studies correlating sex-typical differences in the brain with gender dysphoria. There are also plenty of studies showing the opposite, as well as studies showing trans people being, on average, somewhere in between the male and female averages (on the specific area of the brain observed - generally different in each study!). The fact is, we just don't know. And that's why GLAAD's definition is good. Trans people deserve respect and fair treatment regardless of what causes some people to be trans and others not to be trans. If we find out tomorrow that brain differences can't explain being trans, that doesn't change how trans people should be treated. And it will probably be quite some time before we have a good answer there. We still don't know why some people are gay and some aren't, for example, and that has received far more research interest. The answer to that question, and to the trans question, will likely be quite complex, scientifically. But ethically, the answer is simple - just treat people nicely regardless.

sarahj 12y ago
> There are also plenty of studies showing the opposite, as well as studies showing trans people being, on average, somewhere in between the male and female averages (on the specific area of the brain observed - generally different in each study!). The fact is, we just don't know. That should have been sex-atypical differences, which would accommodate for the "in-between" studies. Taken as a whole, the science is pretty clear, when looking at various parts of the brain, patients with gender dysphoria (both prior and after treatment) show differences from cisgender controls, and typically, those differences align with those of their identified gender. > And that's why GLAAD's definition is good. Trans people deserve respect and fair treatment regardless of what causes some people to be trans and others not to be trans. These two don't follow each other. Of course transgender people deserve respect and fair treatment, like all people. I just think we have to be careful when we conflate gender variance with gender dysphoria - one is a very evolving cultural concept, the other is a major contributor to suicide in transgender individuals.
- Aloha 12y ago
  After dating a transwoman, I came away with the strong opinion about what being transgender is from a biological/psychological point of view. What I learned was - it boils down to is a missmatch between the software, and the wetware - the thing is, many people have this, many who are successful and happy in the body they have - but there are some, a minority of those afflicted who simply cannot deal with that missmatch - I don't know why they can't (up bringing, inability to extend beyond classic gender identity, something biological, not really sure) - but whatever the cause, they can't, and those are the folks that generally end up identifying as transgender, and going thru the process of transition to remove the discongruity between the hardware and software. I don't (well try not to, I'm only human) place a value judgement on it, its about finding your own happy place where you can flower into a good person.

spacehome 12y ago

> Gender Dysphoria ... is most likely neurological in nature As opposed to what?

sarahj 12y ago
Psychological. Many early theories tended along the line that gender dysphoria was an extension of sexual fetishistic behaviour. We know now this to be very wrong, but there are still many who advocate for this position.
- shaftoe 12y ago
  I'm curious as to the distinction here. Can you explain? Either way sounds like something wired abnormally. I don't think people necessarily choose their sexual fetishes either, though gender dysphoria strikes me as more of a compulsion than a sexual thing.
  - sarahj 12y ago
    Sure. Although it is a vary leaky abstraction :) We used to consider depression as a psychological phenomena. That is, we used to think that we could make a person think their way out of it. Either though CBT or some other kind of psychological treatment. Since then we have learned that neurological factors, in particular neurochemistry which are correlated with depression. We now know a person cannot think their way out of depression - we have developed treatments with varying success, although we still have a way to go.
    - learc83 12y ago
      CBT, and medication have fairly similar efficacy rates for treatment of depression. So it's not true that "We now know a person cannot think their way out of depression."
      - Amezarak 12y ago
        The argument doesn't make sense in the first place. Neurological problems are expressed psychologically and psychological problems are expressed neurologically. The brain will indeed literally rewire itself based on what you do and think. Which is not at all, of course, to say you can simply wish yourself out of depression. Indeed that's exactly what can make depression such a problem.