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Thanks. I wasn't really advocating unionization or really anything in particular, just marveling at how stunningly clueless (or, if you prefer, generous and ega

Thanks. I wasn't really advocating unionization or really anything in particular, just marveling at how stunningly clueless (or, if you prefer, generous and egalitarian) programmers can be. The amount of money we collectively leave on the table is staggering.

nsfyn55 12y ago
> The amount of money we collectively leave on the table is staggering. Right if your goal is to make truckloads of money sure. Not all software professionals ascribe a great deal of value to this end. Many major advances in bringing high-end operating and distributed systems to the masses have come from "Open Source" movements. Is is that hard to imagine a more protectionist, profit-driven software industry where these technologies are shelved in favor of propping up current money makers? In effect denying cheap, high quality solutions to a generation of innovators and start up companies? As a side note I found your call for unionization to be a flawed comparison. The organizations you've alluded to (AMA and ABA) deal in inelastic goods that enjoy popular legal protections. This is for good reason, no one wants brain surgery from an amateur, but I might give one a shot at standing up my wordpress site.
- gaius 12y ago
  You have managed to completely miss my point. Truckloads of money ARE being made. The only question is who controls them. If a programmer creates a product worth millions but only gets a £20k salary, where has the rest of the money gone? Are you really so altruistic that you would rather your boss and his boss got rich, than taint yourself with money? As I say if you don't want it donate it to good causes but either way YOU should control what happens to as much money as possible, because if you don't, someone else will.
  - nsfyn55 12y ago
    I think it is you that has missed the point. Its not about who gets the money, but whether the initiative would have survived at all in a corporate environment. Sometimes the only way to jump over the heads of the paymasters is to do something for free.
  - nl 12y ago
    my point Wrong browser window maybe? :)
ufmace 12y ago
There's some truth to that, but you have to pay attention to the other factors involved in a typical full-time job. You probably are giving up a lot of money compared to what your work is objectively worth, but not simply to greed and exploitation. At least some of the gap is from the stability and reduction of risk. You know exactly how much money you're going to make every month, and it doesn't change, even if the company/your product isn't doing so well right now. That isn't natural, and it doesn't come for free. To see the other side of that, you can always work as an independent consultant. You'll probably make more money if you do it well, but you'll have a lot more risk and variability in your income. Can't find a client this month? Tough luck, hope you've got savings. That's what you're giving up money for protection from. There's also usually a bunch of other stuff provided, which may include sales, advertising, market analysis, customer relations, infrastructure management, etc.

nsfyn55 12y ago

> The amount of money we collectively leave on the table is staggering. Right if your goal is to make truckloads of money sure. Not all software professionals ascribe a great deal of value to this end. Many major advances in bringing high-end operating and distributed systems to the masses have come from "Open Source" movements. Is is that hard to imagine a more protectionist, profit-driven software industry where these technologies are shelved in favor of propping up current money makers? In effect denying cheap, high quality solutions to a generation of innovators and start up companies? As a side note I found your call for unionization to be a flawed comparison. The organizations you've alluded to (AMA and ABA) deal in inelastic goods that enjoy popular legal protections. This is for good reason, no one wants brain surgery from an amateur, but I might give one a shot at standing up my wordpress site.

gaius 12y ago
You have managed to completely miss my point. Truckloads of money ARE being made. The only question is who controls them. If a programmer creates a product worth millions but only gets a £20k salary, where has the rest of the money gone? Are you really so altruistic that you would rather your boss and his boss got rich, than taint yourself with money? As I say if you don't want it donate it to good causes but either way YOU should control what happens to as much money as possible, because if you don't, someone else will.
- nsfyn55 12y ago
  I think it is you that has missed the point. Its not about who gets the money, but whether the initiative would have survived at all in a corporate environment. Sometimes the only way to jump over the heads of the paymasters is to do something for free.
- nl 12y ago
  my point Wrong browser window maybe? :)

ufmace 12y ago

There's some truth to that, but you have to pay attention to the other factors involved in a typical full-time job. You probably are giving up a lot of money compared to what your work is objectively worth, but not simply to greed and exploitation. At least some of the gap is from the stability and reduction of risk. You know exactly how much money you're going to make every month, and it doesn't change, even if the company/your product isn't doing so well right now. That isn't natural, and it doesn't come for free. To see the other side of that, you can always work as an independent consultant. You'll probably make more money if you do it well, but you'll have a lot more risk and variability in your income. Can't find a client this month? Tough luck, hope you've got savings. That's what you're giving up money for protection from. There's also usually a bunch of other stuff provided, which may include sales, advertising, market analysis, customer relations, infrastructure management, etc.