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Skinny Puppy demands royalties from US govt for using their music in Guantanamo
- orf 12y agoImagine hearing this[1] for 12 hours straight. Edit: Not saying it's bad music, but perhaps after the 12 hour point the constant beat would drive anyone crazy. 1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYC5VFuiblU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYC5VFuiblU
- csixty4 12y agoYou just described most of 1996 for me.
- butwhy 12y agoCould be worse. I was expecting some hardcore metal abomination.
- jschwartzi 12y agoIf it was GWAR it would've been a request to participate in the next torturing.
- huxley 12y agoMan, I listened to them live at the Flamingo in Halifax. The music is besides the point, there's nothing intrinsically wrong with Skinny Puppy (even if it isn't everyone's cup of tea), it's the constant overwhelming of the senses that creates the conditions of torture.
- zikzak 12y agoI could say the same re: Flamingo. Small world.
- return0 12y agoNothing is pleasurable for 12 hours straight. No accounting for musical tastes , if you don't like them , that's OK.
- kyleblarson 12y agoThey're nihilists dude, they believe in nothing.
- happyscrappy 12y agoSay what you will about the tenets of National Socialism but at least its an ethos.
- pmoriarty 12y agoPlease. That's a great song, and even Skinny Puppy (a relatively tame, "dance-industrial" band) has a lot noiser, less structured music that would be more "disturbing" to some. These prisoners were lucky if they got to listen to Puppy's Assimilate. There's far, far, far more extreme music than that, such as the whole "noise" genre, which includes bands like Massona,[1] Merzbow,[2] and Borbetomagus.[3] And, yes, fans pay good money to buy their albums and go hear them live. I've gone for days listening to all of these virtually non-stop. I'm not really in to them anymore, but I'd still much rather hear some noise music than put in a stress position, be tasered, be stuck in an extremely cold or extremely hot room, be waterboarded, raped, deprived of sleep or medical attention for weeks on end, be subject to mock executions, have my family threatened, be kicked to death (or kicked in general.. no thanks!). Yes, music and various other means of sensory overload or sensory deprivation can induce altered states of consciousness, and when combined with a menacing environment where you're surrounded by people who mean you harm (and often do you harm), they can be unsettling. But music would be one of the last things I'd be worried about in a torture prison. At least they didn't force the prisoners to listen to Johnny Cash.[4] [1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9JjDP3rK5I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9JjDP3rK5I [2] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AguPH0XBxdw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AguPH0XBxdw [3] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GulFn6cqFvc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GulFn6cqFvc [4] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=It7107ELQvY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=It7107ELQvY
- krick 12y agoIt's not about music being extreme. Actually, you can see that other bands in the list aren't something that is generally considered being extreme. I'd argue that listening to Merzbow as a torture method is far easier than Queen exactly because of lack of structure — I generally listen to Merzbow and such when I'm extremely tired and it just helps to relax and stop thinking. Anyway, I wouldn't be so sure that loud music for 12 hours is actually more humanistic (hah, humanistic torture — I've got to remember that!) than arbitrary item from your list. After all, Chinese water torture [1] also sounds surprisingly harmless, right? [1] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_water_torture http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_water_torture
- steveax 12y ago
- ankushnarula 12y agoInterview with the band about this issue - haven't watched it yet but... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UTSKex8YkU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UTSKex8YkU Also, I'm a big fan from the old days - I'd probably choose something less melodic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUQ_R8faRjg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUQ_R8faRjg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGQZyMUMDGc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGQZyMUMDGc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEDgnYuZkRg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEDgnYuZkRg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8c6CsQL752o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8c6CsQL752o
- sheetjs 12y agoReddit discussion (from 9 hours ago): http://www.reddit.com/r/nottheonion/comments/2p8mvd/skinny_puppy_demands_666000_in_royalties_from_us/ http://www.reddit.com/r/nottheonion/comments/2p8mvd/skinny_p... Earlier this year they tried to bill the US government: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/weird-news/metal-band-skinny-puppy-send-us-government-invoice-after-finding-out-their-music-was-used-as-torture-device-in-guantanamo-bay-9100005.html http://www.independent.co.uk/news/weird-news/metal-band-skin...
- sheeba37 12y agoJoke's on the US government. I would've provided them with much, much worse music for only half that.
- sheeba37 12y agoJoke's on the US government. I would've provided them with much, much worse music for only half that.
- butwhy 12y agoHow do they prove it?
- malka 12y agoThey just have to torture them to get a confession.
- max55 12y agoJoke's on the US government. I would've provided them with much, much worse music for only half that.
- shdon 12y agoIt's a pity that governments place themselves above the law. It would be nice to see the US government forced to actually pay up. It would be even nicer to see the band donate any sum awarded to an organisation like Amnesty International or Doctors Without Borders.
- grecy 12y ago> It would be nice to see the US government forced to actually pay up. Or, if they don't, to keep things consistent, then nobody should ever have to pay up again.
- bostik 12y agoCould you then label a nightclub as "Aural S/M Experience" and avoid paying any royalties from the used mu^Wtorture tracks?
- JonnieCache 12y agoSeems pretty cheap. They've got a lot to learn about military contracting.
- junto 12y agoAs long as the figure continues to have lots of triple 6's the point is made I guess.
- delinka 12y agoLet's step back into reality for a moment. Do they actually have a claim? Once I've bought the album, can't I torture my acquaintances to my heart's content without paying royalties? A small enough group isn't a "public performance," I'm not broadcasting it to the entire town. Further, aren't there exemptions for the federal government with respect to use of copyrighted works? Sure, you'd probably have a case against a federal agency who acquired your album only to provide copies freely to its employees, but if they stick a track in a presentation to a small group (or several small groups ... or many small groups) I'm pretty sure the courts would just throw out your case. OK, enough armchair lawyering, is there someone with a professional opinion on this?
- waterlesscloud 12y agoBars and retail stores count as "public performance" for purposes of song royalties. So the group in question can be quite small.
- delinka 12y agoBut the people in bars and retail stores are not the acquaintances of the manager (or whomever chose the music to play.)
- uxp 12y agoTexas agrees with you: > Do I need a license to play music in my establishment? > Yes! When you purchase a CD, MP3 or similar product, you are granted the right to non-public performance of the material, such as at home or in your car. [...] Although you may have paid for a copy of the music, or are paying a DJ or live band to perform copyrighted music, you are still required by U.S. Copyright Law to obtain the proper licenses for the playback of the songs. [...] http://governor.state.tx.us/music/guides/music_in_venues http://governor.state.tx.us/music/guides/music_in_venues It goes on to state that ASCAP does not have licensing information available on their website (as of the last update in 2009), but BMI does. Here's their license for "Local Governmental Entities": http://www.bmi.com/forms/licensing/gl/lge.pdf http://www.bmi.com/forms/licensing/gl/lge.pdf and for completeness, "Eating and Drinking Establishments": http://www.bmi.com/forms/licensing/gl/ede.pdf http://www.bmi.com/forms/licensing/gl/ede.pdf Another article from The Guardian also reports that in 2010, prisons in the UK had to enforce rules to prevent music from being played in the open because licensing costs were becoming too expensive: http://www.theguardian.com/society/2010/jan/19/prison-music-ban http://www.theguardian.com/society/2010/jan/19/prison-music-...
- jmnicolas 12y agoHey who cares about torture in Guantanamo, a crime has been committed : copyright infringement. The level of cynicism of these guys is impressive.
- i_cannot_hack 12y agoWhat on earth are you talking about? This is a statement _against_ the torture in Guantanamo. They are suing to bring publicity to the issue. > used our music without our knowledge and used it as an actual weapon against somebody > And Key said band members were offended to learn that their music was played in the notorious prison to inflict damagd on detainees.
- jmnicolas 12y agoI guess it's a cultural thing (I'm not Anglo-Saxon) but for me, asking for money is not about being offended : it is being greedy. If they pledged this money on a charity or something it would look entirely different.
- Gracana 12y agoThey're never going to be awarded anything. The money isn't the point.
- dedward 12y agoThey will be doing this as a statement against the use of their work in this manner, and for the publicity that statement generates. It's very unlikely they actually think "Hey, we have had our copyright violated and deserve compensation." This isn't a money grab, that's not their style.
- davidgerard 12y agoActual source: http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/vancouver-band-demands-compensation-after-learning-music-used-for-guantanamo-bay-torture-1.1671312 http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/vancouver-band-demands-compensa... This is from February.
- microtherion 12y agoAnd I submitted it back then: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7192081 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7192081
- andrewtbham 12y agoThe guard's story that told the band is interesting. http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2014/2/industrial-action.html http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2014/2/industrial-acti...
- saljam 12y agoMusicians have made similar demands in 2008[1]. That includes Christopher Cerf, one of the Sesame Street composers. He features in a documentary Aljazeera made about this[2]. I seem to remember he also asked for royalties but was unsuccessful, but I can't find a reference to that. [1] http://www.webcitation.org/query?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2Fhostednews%2Fap%2Farticle%2FALeqM5g64EuoVhuWIkenJw0OsqodF-EbnwD94VDHPG0&date=2008-12-09 http://www.webcitation.org/query?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google... [2] http://www.dummymag.com/videos/watch-al-jazeera-s-songs-of-war-with-christopher-cerf http://www.dummymag.com/videos/watch-al-jazeera-s-songs-of-w...
- pekk 12y agoIn case you didn't understand the subtext, the point of this is to register offense that their music was used in this way (the opposite of what they would want). It's a form of passive resistance. This story isn't primarily about copyright and it certainly isn't about money.
- saraid216 12y agoAh, but a large percentage of HNers are Americans and thus care more about copyright and money than about torture.
- swasheck 12y agoI think that what you're trying to say is that `a large percentage of HNers are Americans and thus care more about copyright being used against them in order to extort them, usually for money.` Most "Americans" care about a wide variety of topics so please take this sort of stereotype somewhere else.
- saraid216 12y agoNo, that is not at all what I was saying, but thank you for trying.
- etherael 12y agoI'm confused here. You said something that was on the surface absurd, got downvoted on it, which I would assume would at least cause you to re-examine your original premises, and then came back doubling down on your original statement, which I interpret as dismissal of the downvotes as just hive mind thinking about a subject they're very clearly wrong about. So, do you honestly actually believe that most Americans are more concerned with copyrights than torture? And if so, what leads you to this conclusion? This question is not meant to be hostile, I am not American so I have no horse in this race, I just want to understand where you're coming from.
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- sysk 12y agoCould this spawn a new music genre/industry (torture music)? We truly live in a bizarre world. It would certainly make for a good character background in a dystopian movie: a megacorp X office worker who produces torture music at day but leads a second life at night, rediscovering his love for music at underground bars where any type of music is being played (despite the the strict totalitarian government censorship laws).
- singingfish 12y agoI did a small amount of research on this on behalf of a psychologist involved in torture trials (not testing torture, bringing people to account). The use of Skinny Puppy's music has been quite widespread.
- jackhammer 12y agoI thought the entire point of having that secret prison in Cuba is that US laws don't apply.
- DigitalSea 12y ago$666,000 is far too low. If the members of Skinny Puppy knew how Government defence contracting works, they would realise that this kind of value is a write-off, go for $666,000,000 - now that is more of a defence figure. In all seriousness though, this shows extreme irony. The Government is content with passing draconian bills penalising users for downloading Game of Thrones and cutting off their Internet connections, sending Swat teams to their homes and allowing corporations to financially haemorrhage them in the "court of law". Yet, when the Government wants to use someone else's music without paying for a licence, they think they are above the law they want to so desperately put in place? They definitely have a case. Copyright law forbids audio and video being broadcasted to many persons without a licence in a public place (with exception of your family and a few other exceptions). This isn't music being played in a family home, it is music being broadcasted in a US owned detention camp prison. If I were in a band and found out my music was being used to torture people, I would be pretty pissed about it too. I couldn't imagine how that would make you feel knowing something you created is being used to interrogate and break a potentially innocent person locked up inhumanely. I am going to be keeping an eye on this case. If the US fails to pay up, it could set a precedent for future court cases brought against small businesses and individuals being fined for playing music. And yes, there have been cases of small businesses, restaurants, cafes, etc being bullied by ASCAP into paying for licences to have play CD's or even in some cases, have a radio playing.
- youWontLikeThis 12y agoWith all the people complaining about copyright infringments I feel obligated to copy and paste this comment from further below: -------------------------- Gracana 2 days ago | link They're never going to be awarded anything. The money isn't the point. ------------------------- The money isn't the point.