5 ms·

But what if Brown wasn't attacking the officer but defending himself? Dorian Johnson's story is that Wilson almost ran them over, slammed his door into them, a

by malyk 12y ago

But what if Brown wasn't attacking the officer but defending himself? Dorian Johnson's story is that Wilson almost ran them over, slammed his door into them, and then grabbed Brown and pulled him through the window. IF Michael Brown is struggling to get free after being unnecessarily assaulted by Wilson and then sees Wilson draw his gun then of course he is going to strike the officer trying to flee. And this is why the situation is so troubling. The witness testimony is all over the place and unreliable (as it usually is), and it leaves open huge variations in how the events transpired. Yes, Wilson was struck somehow. But we don't know who initiated the conflict and that has a huge bearing on what happens next. Yes, Brown was shot in the car. But we have no idea if he actually got ahold of the gun in Wilsons hand and was aiming it at Wilson. Wilson could have simply pulled the gun out and started firing. Yes, we know that Brown ran away and was chased. Yes, we know he was shot facing Wilson. But we don't know if he was standing still surrendering or charging. I've read a huge chunk of the grand jury testimony and looked at a lot of the evidence and the only reasonable conclusion that you can come to is "I don't know what happened". two other things. First, I'm sure most people believe that if a police officer tells you to do something you do it. That might be really good advice, especially if you have brown skin, but I think it's not reasonable to blindly obey over-aggressive and unfounded requests just because the person has a badge. Second, police tend to escalate situations way beyond what is necessary and my gut says the Ferguson event is a perfect example if you hedge against Wilsons whitewashed version. One more thing...police need to be evaluated on a different metric then simply arrests. Killing a fleeing suspect should almost always be an intolerable event inside the police department. Letting the guy get away is almost always the better alternative (almost being the key word). But, as you said, that would get the officer in trouble. Which is just dumb.

MetaCosm 12y ago
A lot of your post is you just saying things you think with no evidence, what your "gut" tells you, etc. Not going to respond to those, because they are not very interesting. Let me share one of my personal opinions with no basis in fact: cake is superior to pie, there I said it! > But what if Brown wasn't attacking the officer but defending himself? We actually got into a bit of a debate at dinner discussing if you have the right to defend yourself against an unjust arrest -- short version: "nope". In 1900 there was a case that went that way, but since then it was been reversed... and even more specifically overruled in various state ordinances. Even if you did have the right to physical resist (again, you don't, so don't resist arrest) an "unjust arrest" ... you aren't informed of the reason you are being arrested at the time of arrest, you don't have enough information to even claim it is unjust. > If Michael Brown is struggling to get free after being unnecessarily assaulted by Wilson and then sees Wilson draw his gun then of course he is going to strike the officer trying to flee. This is put forth as factual "of course". But, it isn't the common case -- most people when assaulted (justified or not) by a police officer surrender, and if it escalates to having a gun drawn... they... you guessed it, surrender. The vast majority of police officers make it to retirement without firing their weapon while on duty. > First, I'm sure most people believe that if a police officer tells you to do something you do it. That might be really good advice, especially if you have brown skin, but I think it's not reasonable to blindly obey over-aggressive and unfounded requests just because the person has a badge. You can think what you want, but you have NO RIGHT to EVER resist arrest, that is the simple fact, there is no law on your side, and it will end horribly for you. You submit, you get arrested, you offer NO resistance and then you take action AFTER the fact (sue, try to get them fired, take it to the press, whatever).
- sillysaurus3 12y ago
  Could we not be so aggressive? It's an important issue, and the best way to close people's minds is to belittle them. Besides, malyk's concerns are legitimate, and they've spent time researching this issue. We should be the ones willing to listen to all points of view. I know passions are high about this, but progress requires patience and a willingness to explore all the ideas.
  - MetaCosm 12y ago
    Aggressive? My post was mellow except my response to > I think it's not reasonable to blindly obey over-aggressive and unfounded requests which is a perspective that will LITERALLY get someone killed if they believe it. That is why I used uppercase, because it is actually really important, not everyone takes the time to properly research what rights they have (and don't have).
- malyk 12y ago
  All of my points are based on the parts of the event that have no clarity. They are open to interpretation. That's why I'm offering plausible and reasonable alternative explanations. Because how those events unfolded directly relate to whether it was a just shooting or not. As to your last line. I realize that legally you are correct, but I just can accept that you have to be compliant because of a badge...especially when we live in a society that has a horrible track record of justice when people with brown complexion are involved. Action after the fact, especially with the rate of discipline and conviction of police officers, is just not a very realistic option. And pie definitely beats cake! ;)
  - sillysaurus3 12y ago
    Totally agreed about the pie. About the other part, though... I'm really interested to know what you could mean. Isn't it, well, kind of mistaken to feel like we shouldn't cooperate with officers? The power asymmetry is just too great, on a practical level. But beyond the cold facts, it seems like the basis of a functional society is to cooperate. In a situation where there's an injustice, the media might be able to help if you write up a compelling story, though it's true that'd be a remediation after the problem occurred. It just seems like not cooperating will cause more problems than it could possibly solve, in every possible case. So it's interesting to me, and I'd love to get your perspective on some situation where it could be helpful.
peterfirefly 12y ago
> [...] and then grabbed Brown and pulled him through the window. How do you do that with a "teen" of that size?
- aswanson 12y ago
  He probably meant grabbed him by the arm or neck through the window. Dorian Johnson stated he grabbed his neck through the window. He obviously didnt mean "pulled his whole body through the window".
  - peterfirefly 12y ago
    It still sounds very unlikely. Michael Brown was huge and you are not exactly well positioned for pulling people when you are sitting in a car.
    - malyk 12y ago
      Darren Wilson is also 6'4" 220ish pounds. It's not like he's a wimp.
    - aswanson 12y ago
      With likelihood in mind, how likely is it that a person believes they can grab a holstered gun from a cop, get shot, decide to run at least 150 feet from fear of getting shot again, and then turn into a 'demon' with no fear of gunfire anymore and charge the source of gunfire?
      - peterfirefly 12y ago
        I'd say quite likely. Some people are incredible stupid. http://awesci.com/the-astonishingly-funny-story-of-mr-mcarthur-wheeler/ http://awesci.com/the-astonishingly-funny-story-of-mr-mcarth...
      - anigbrowl 12y ago
        With that and some other odd aspects of his behavior which Johnson claimed was out of character (eg starting an alterction and stealing in the store), I wonder if he was suffering from Toxoplasmosis or some similar condition. Toxoplasmosis is thought to dramatically affect an individual's appetite for risky behavior. Preliminary research suggests that as you'd expect there 's a higher seroprevalance in prison populations, but much more work needs to be done to verify this. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxoplasmosis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxoplasmosis

by malyk 12y ago

MetaCosm 12y ago

A lot of your post is you just saying things you think with no evidence, what your "gut" tells you, etc. Not going to respond to those, because they are not very interesting. Let me share one of my personal opinions with no basis in fact: cake is superior to pie, there I said it! > But what if Brown wasn't attacking the officer but defending himself? We actually got into a bit of a debate at dinner discussing if you have the right to defend yourself against an unjust arrest -- short version: "nope". In 1900 there was a case that went that way, but since then it was been reversed... and even more specifically overruled in various state ordinances. Even if you did have the right to physical resist (again, you don't, so don't resist arrest) an "unjust arrest" ... you aren't informed of the reason you are being arrested at the time of arrest, you don't have enough information to even claim it is unjust. > If Michael Brown is struggling to get free after being unnecessarily assaulted by Wilson and then sees Wilson draw his gun then of course he is going to strike the officer trying to flee. This is put forth as factual "of course". But, it isn't the common case -- most people when assaulted (justified or not) by a police officer surrender, and if it escalates to having a gun drawn... they... you guessed it, surrender. The vast majority of police officers make it to retirement without firing their weapon while on duty. > First, I'm sure most people believe that if a police officer tells you to do something you do it. That might be really good advice, especially if you have brown skin, but I think it's not reasonable to blindly obey over-aggressive and unfounded requests just because the person has a badge. You can think what you want, but you have NO RIGHT to EVER resist arrest, that is the simple fact, there is no law on your side, and it will end horribly for you. You submit, you get arrested, you offer NO resistance and then you take action AFTER the fact (sue, try to get them fired, take it to the press, whatever).

sillysaurus3 12y ago
Could we not be so aggressive? It's an important issue, and the best way to close people's minds is to belittle them. Besides, malyk's concerns are legitimate, and they've spent time researching this issue. We should be the ones willing to listen to all points of view. I know passions are high about this, but progress requires patience and a willingness to explore all the ideas.
- MetaCosm 12y ago
  Aggressive? My post was mellow except my response to > I think it's not reasonable to blindly obey over-aggressive and unfounded requests which is a perspective that will LITERALLY get someone killed if they believe it. That is why I used uppercase, because it is actually really important, not everyone takes the time to properly research what rights they have (and don't have).
malyk 12y ago
All of my points are based on the parts of the event that have no clarity. They are open to interpretation. That's why I'm offering plausible and reasonable alternative explanations. Because how those events unfolded directly relate to whether it was a just shooting or not. As to your last line. I realize that legally you are correct, but I just can accept that you have to be compliant because of a badge...especially when we live in a society that has a horrible track record of justice when people with brown complexion are involved. Action after the fact, especially with the rate of discipline and conviction of police officers, is just not a very realistic option. And pie definitely beats cake! ;)
- sillysaurus3 12y ago
  Totally agreed about the pie. About the other part, though... I'm really interested to know what you could mean. Isn't it, well, kind of mistaken to feel like we shouldn't cooperate with officers? The power asymmetry is just too great, on a practical level. But beyond the cold facts, it seems like the basis of a functional society is to cooperate. In a situation where there's an injustice, the media might be able to help if you write up a compelling story, though it's true that'd be a remediation after the problem occurred. It just seems like not cooperating will cause more problems than it could possibly solve, in every possible case. So it's interesting to me, and I'd love to get your perspective on some situation where it could be helpful.

peterfirefly 12y ago

> [...] and then grabbed Brown and pulled him through the window. How do you do that with a "teen" of that size?

aswanson 12y ago
He probably meant grabbed him by the arm or neck through the window. Dorian Johnson stated he grabbed his neck through the window. He obviously didnt mean "pulled his whole body through the window".
- peterfirefly 12y ago
  It still sounds very unlikely. Michael Brown was huge and you are not exactly well positioned for pulling people when you are sitting in a car.
  - malyk 12y ago
    Darren Wilson is also 6'4" 220ish pounds. It's not like he's a wimp.
  - aswanson 12y ago
    With likelihood in mind, how likely is it that a person believes they can grab a holstered gun from a cop, get shot, decide to run at least 150 feet from fear of getting shot again, and then turn into a 'demon' with no fear of gunfire anymore and charge the source of gunfire?
    - peterfirefly 12y ago
      I'd say quite likely. Some people are incredible stupid. http://awesci.com/the-astonishingly-funny-story-of-mr-mcarthur-wheeler/ http://awesci.com/the-astonishingly-funny-story-of-mr-mcarth...
    - anigbrowl 12y ago
      With that and some other odd aspects of his behavior which Johnson claimed was out of character (eg starting an alterction and stealing in the store), I wonder if he was suffering from Toxoplasmosis or some similar condition. Toxoplasmosis is thought to dramatically affect an individual's appetite for risky behavior. Preliminary research suggests that as you'd expect there 's a higher seroprevalance in prison populations, but much more work needs to be done to verify this. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxoplasmosis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxoplasmosis