7 ms·

>It's a fact that rich black students on average have a lower IQ and do worse on tests than the poorest of white students. Citation needed

lexcorvus 12y ago
There's a lot of data on this subject; if you're actually interested in evaluating it as a scientific hypothesis (rather than dismissing it as heresy), this should get you started: http://isteve.blogspot.com/2014/03/2008-sat-scores-by-race-by-income.html http://isteve.blogspot.com/2014/03/2008-sat-scores-by-race-b... The study in question involves the SAT, not formal IQ tests, but the two are highly correlated. [1] You'll also see that the original claim isn't quite supported, as the poorest group of whites scored slightly worse than the richest group of blacks, but the study does broadly support the conclusion that the poorest whites outscore all but the richest blacks. [1]: See, e.g., http://www.psychologicalscience.org/pdf/ps/Frey.pdf?origin=publication_detail http://www.psychologicalscience.org/pdf/ps/Frey.pdf?origin=p.... "These studies indicate that the SAT is mainly a test of g [general intelligence]."
cityboy0 12y ago
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c6/1995-SAT-vs-Income-Education.png https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c6/1995-SAT... Plus page 41 and 44 of this PDF: http://nyulawreview.org/sites/default/files/pdf/NYULawReview-72-1-Wightman.pdf http://nyulawreview.org/sites/default/files/pdf/NYULawReview... Plus the first few sentences here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence#United_States_test_scores https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence#United_S... As well as many more. By the way guys, downvoting and flagkilling comments to silence opinions (that are backed up by facts and statistics) that hurt your feelings? Lame.
- smtddr 12y ago
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_racism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_racism http://www.quora.com/What-scientific-evidence-is-there-to-disprove-biological-racism http://www.quora.com/What-scientific-evidence-is-there-to-di... http://www.hirhome.com/rr/rrintro.htm http://www.hirhome.com/rr/rrintro.htm http://science-beta.slashdot.org/story/14/08/11/122229/geneticists-decry-book-on-race-and-evolution http://science-beta.slashdot.org/story/14/08/11/122229/genet...
  - cityboy0 12y ago
    Ahh, the ol' "racist" technique. Someone cites facts that puts a minority in a bad light? Someone says something mean to a black person? Just yell "racist" and you'll surely silence them and "win" the argument! I am not claiming whites are superior or that blacks are inferior. All I am doing is citing facts. It is a fact that the poorest of white people outscore the richest of blacks in intelligence testing. It is also a fact that black males make up 6% of the population in the US, yet are responsible for a full half of our murders. It is also a fact that men are different from women, blacks are different from whites, and so on. This "everyone is exactly the same!!!1" stuff is baloney. The facts are indisputable. Your links don't change that fact. And shouting "RACIST!!!" does nothing but make you look silly and unintelligent.
    - smtddr 12y ago
      >>http://i.imgur.com/iQdEwX7.png http://i.imgur.com/iQdEwX7.png I can tell by your insults that this discussion is impossible.
  - peterfirefly 12y ago
    I took a brief look at your second link and found this: "There's no sensible reason to expect that, because all humans faced nearly identical selective pressures until the invention of agriculture 10,000 years ago, and there hasn't been enough time for much evolution since." The first part is very, very, very likely wrong, the second part is completely known to be wrong. He also starts out by committing Lewontin's Fallacy. In a comment he shows himself to be a Lamarckian: "Oh, the Ashkenazi intelligence thing. Good childrearing! Generations of educating kids well, because of putting a very high value on education, both because of religious requirements and because of the economic niche they got slotted into by European nobility. If there are a set of alleles Ashkenazim have that the rest of humanity doesn't that are plausibly linked to intelligence, I've never heard of them." "Anonymous" also has an answer (1 May 2013) that is much better.
peterfirefly 12y ago
Why is the post you replied to flagkilled? I thought it was pretty much an empirical fact? And who does the flagkilling?
- vacri 12y ago
  Open a comment's 'link' page and if you have above X karma, you can see a 'flag' link. Collect a couple of those, and you get flagged. Likely that comment was flagkilled because it's a standard bigoted statement, known to be controversial. If you're going to make statements like that, then you really need to back them up with data. Using 'everyone knows this' and similar are some standard weasel-words that bigots use. Likewise, it was a brand new account created just for a few flamebait comments. It's not exactly honest debating. Basically, if you are going to make an academic comment on a sensitive topic, you should take more care in how you present it.
  - peterfirefly 12y ago
    Thank you. I wondered what that 'flag' link was for. I think it should be used to suppress spam and not for suppressing dissent, though. > Basically, if you are going to make an academic comment on a sensitive topic, you should take more care in how you present it. Precisely. I see plenty of people in this thread who have a fixed opinion with very little to back it up. And it is not those who say that there is a measurable (and measured!) difference in intelligence or violence between blacks and whites. smtddr's post nearby is clearly in that category. The hirhome link is hilarious and would be wonderful as satire if it weren't for Poe's law.
kaitai 12y ago
These aren't the citations you're asking for, but they are interesting (and the comment you responded to got killed). It's a fact that while second-generation Chinese-Americans score quite well on tests and get a lot of bachelor's degrees, their children score even less well, and by the third generation they're as dumb as Americans. Wait, they are Americans. Right. See table 2 in [1]. So, the point is that according to census data people who come to the US from Asia get dumber, people who come to the US from Eastern Europe get dumber, and people who come here from Africa continue doing very well if they are Nigerian [2] and improve in educational attainment if they came from a refugee camp in Somalia. Hm. Apparently American society makes a lot of people dumber, although it does help out people coming from refugee camps. Since white people from Europe get dumber the longer they stay in the US, we've got to admit that it's the water, or our environmental regulations, or something else affecting their genetics, right? It's only fair. It couldn't be culture. [1] https://www.princeton.edu/futureofchildren/publications/docs/21_01_08.pdf https://www.princeton.edu/futureofchildren/publications/docs... [2] http://www.chron.com/news/article/Data-show-Nigerians-the-most-educated-in-the-U-S-1600808.php http://www.chron.com/news/article/Data-show-Nigerians-the-mo...

lexcorvus 12y ago

There's a lot of data on this subject; if you're actually interested in evaluating it as a scientific hypothesis (rather than dismissing it as heresy), this should get you started: http://isteve.blogspot.com/2014/03/2008-sat-scores-by-race-by-income.html http://isteve.blogspot.com/2014/03/2008-sat-scores-by-race-b... The study in question involves the SAT, not formal IQ tests, but the two are highly correlated. [1] You'll also see that the original claim isn't quite supported, as the poorest group of whites scored slightly worse than the richest group of blacks, but the study does broadly support the conclusion that the poorest whites outscore all but the richest blacks. [1]: See, e.g., http://www.psychologicalscience.org/pdf/ps/Frey.pdf?origin=publication_detail http://www.psychologicalscience.org/pdf/ps/Frey.pdf?origin=p.... "These studies indicate that the SAT is mainly a test of g [general intelligence]."

cityboy0 12y ago

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c6/1995-SAT-vs-Income-Education.png https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c6/1995-SAT... Plus page 41 and 44 of this PDF: http://nyulawreview.org/sites/default/files/pdf/NYULawReview-72-1-Wightman.pdf http://nyulawreview.org/sites/default/files/pdf/NYULawReview... Plus the first few sentences here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence#United_States_test_scores https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence#United_S... As well as many more. By the way guys, downvoting and flagkilling comments to silence opinions (that are backed up by facts and statistics) that hurt your feelings? Lame.

smtddr 12y ago
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_racism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_racism http://www.quora.com/What-scientific-evidence-is-there-to-disprove-biological-racism http://www.quora.com/What-scientific-evidence-is-there-to-di... http://www.hirhome.com/rr/rrintro.htm http://www.hirhome.com/rr/rrintro.htm http://science-beta.slashdot.org/story/14/08/11/122229/geneticists-decry-book-on-race-and-evolution http://science-beta.slashdot.org/story/14/08/11/122229/genet...
- cityboy0 12y ago
  Ahh, the ol' "racist" technique. Someone cites facts that puts a minority in a bad light? Someone says something mean to a black person? Just yell "racist" and you'll surely silence them and "win" the argument! I am not claiming whites are superior or that blacks are inferior. All I am doing is citing facts. It is a fact that the poorest of white people outscore the richest of blacks in intelligence testing. It is also a fact that black males make up 6% of the population in the US, yet are responsible for a full half of our murders. It is also a fact that men are different from women, blacks are different from whites, and so on. This "everyone is exactly the same!!!1" stuff is baloney. The facts are indisputable. Your links don't change that fact. And shouting "RACIST!!!" does nothing but make you look silly and unintelligent.
  - smtddr 12y ago
    >>http://i.imgur.com/iQdEwX7.png http://i.imgur.com/iQdEwX7.png I can tell by your insults that this discussion is impossible.
- peterfirefly 12y ago
  I took a brief look at your second link and found this: "There's no sensible reason to expect that, because all humans faced nearly identical selective pressures until the invention of agriculture 10,000 years ago, and there hasn't been enough time for much evolution since." The first part is very, very, very likely wrong, the second part is completely known to be wrong. He also starts out by committing Lewontin's Fallacy. In a comment he shows himself to be a Lamarckian: "Oh, the Ashkenazi intelligence thing. Good childrearing! Generations of educating kids well, because of putting a very high value on education, both because of religious requirements and because of the economic niche they got slotted into by European nobility. If there are a set of alleles Ashkenazim have that the rest of humanity doesn't that are plausibly linked to intelligence, I've never heard of them." "Anonymous" also has an answer (1 May 2013) that is much better.

peterfirefly 12y ago

Why is the post you replied to flagkilled? I thought it was pretty much an empirical fact? And who does the flagkilling?

vacri 12y ago
Open a comment's 'link' page and if you have above X karma, you can see a 'flag' link. Collect a couple of those, and you get flagged. Likely that comment was flagkilled because it's a standard bigoted statement, known to be controversial. If you're going to make statements like that, then you really need to back them up with data. Using 'everyone knows this' and similar are some standard weasel-words that bigots use. Likewise, it was a brand new account created just for a few flamebait comments. It's not exactly honest debating. Basically, if you are going to make an academic comment on a sensitive topic, you should take more care in how you present it.
- peterfirefly 12y ago
  Thank you. I wondered what that 'flag' link was for. I think it should be used to suppress spam and not for suppressing dissent, though. > Basically, if you are going to make an academic comment on a sensitive topic, you should take more care in how you present it. Precisely. I see plenty of people in this thread who have a fixed opinion with very little to back it up. And it is not those who say that there is a measurable (and measured!) difference in intelligence or violence between blacks and whites. smtddr's post nearby is clearly in that category. The hirhome link is hilarious and would be wonderful as satire if it weren't for Poe's law.

kaitai 12y ago

These aren't the citations you're asking for, but they are interesting (and the comment you responded to got killed). It's a fact that while second-generation Chinese-Americans score quite well on tests and get a lot of bachelor's degrees, their children score even less well, and by the third generation they're as dumb as Americans. Wait, they are Americans. Right. See table 2 in [1]. So, the point is that according to census data people who come to the US from Asia get dumber, people who come to the US from Eastern Europe get dumber, and people who come here from Africa continue doing very well if they are Nigerian [2] and improve in educational attainment if they came from a refugee camp in Somalia. Hm. Apparently American society makes a lot of people dumber, although it does help out people coming from refugee camps. Since white people from Europe get dumber the longer they stay in the US, we've got to admit that it's the water, or our environmental regulations, or something else affecting their genetics, right? It's only fair. It couldn't be culture. [1] https://www.princeton.edu/futureofchildren/publications/docs/21_01_08.pdf https://www.princeton.edu/futureofchildren/publications/docs... [2] http://www.chron.com/news/article/Data-show-Nigerians-the-most-educated-in-the-U-S-1600808.php http://www.chron.com/news/article/Data-show-Nigerians-the-mo...