7 ms·

More diversity (in neighborhoods, in workplaces, in schools) would certainly help Maybe instead of forcing segregation, or forcing integration, freedom of asso

More diversity (in neighborhoods, in workplaces, in schools) would certainly help Maybe instead of forcing segregation, or forcing integration, freedom of association could be tried?

moron4hire 12y ago
Unfortunately, once communities start out segregated, they stay segregated.
- itjustdontwork 12y ago
  Unfortunately Why is it unfortunate? No white person in their right mind would honestly prefer to live in a half-black community over an all-white community. Sure, they may say they would to save political face, or to look benevolent or "tolerant" and progressive, but deep down? No. The difference in crime rates and quality of life is just astounding. To prefer to live amongst more blacks is to prefer to be more at risk of having a violent (or other) crime committed against you and having your property values diminish greatly. Yes there are lots of bad white people out there but they're much less concentrated within the race.
  - moron4hire 12y ago
    I think you need to take a look at crime statistics again. They're income-based, not race-based. In the United States, poor often also means minority, but it's not race that makes inner cities violent. It's destitution, and the desperation it causes.
    - yummyfajitas 12y ago
      I'm not remotely defending his thesis (and my life choices contradict his claims pretty well) but you are simply wrong about the crime stats. To choose one category of crime, blacks make up about half of of murderers. However, there are twice as many poor whites as there are poor blacks. http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2012/crime-in-the-u.s.-2012/offenses-known-to-law-enforcement/expanded-homicide/expanded_homicide_data_table_3_murder_offenders_by_age_sex_and_race_2012.xls http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2012/c... http://kff.org/other/state-indicator/poverty-rate-by-raceethnicity/ http://kff.org/other/state-indicator/poverty-rate-by-raceeth... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_States#Race_and_ethnicity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_Sta... Further, international comparisons suggest you are wrong about American-style "destitution" causing crime. I know many professionals (I live in India) who are far more "destitute" than any poor American (at least in terms of goods and services they can afford). Strangely they don't turn to crime at anywhere near the rates Americans (of any race) do.
      - coldtea 12y ago
        >To choose one category of crime, blacks make up about half of of murderers. However, there are twice as many poor whites as there are poor blacks. Those whites don't have the same heritage of poverty, bad education and racism against them though. Nor are over-represented by a huge margin in incarceration rates. >Further, international comparisons suggest you are wrong about American-style "destitution" causing crime. I know many professionals (I live in India) who are far more "destitute" than any poor American (at least in terms of goods and services they can afford). Strangely they don't turn to crime at anywhere near the rates Americans (of any race) do. "American style" is not just about being poor / destitute and not being able to afford things. It's about the particular flavor of being that, in the context of the general societies attitude, prevalent climate, ways to deal with it, etc. So people in India being "far more destitute" doesn't mean they share the "American-style "destitution"".
        yummyfajitas 12y ago
        Moron4hire stated a very clear theory: the disparity in crime rates is caused by income/poverty. That particular theory is wrong. Now you seem to be claiming that the disparity in crime rates is caused by some complex combination of things. Can you clearly state what that combination is and what evidence would prove your views wrong? Or are your views not even wrong?
        coldtea 12y ago
        >Now you seem to be claiming that the disparity in crime rates is caused by some complex combination of things. Not just me. Sociologists also. >Can you clearly state what that combination is * Emphasis on extreme individualism (everyone for himself, or at best, his family) that destroys community bonds (that in other places serve to provide assistance to the individual, guidance etc). * Extremely materialistic societal views, where the official national "dream" is about making loads of money. (to prevent easy rebuttals: almost everywhere people would like to make loads of money, the difference is in how is this accepted / embedded in the collective psyche. E.g. in Japan, for an example, collaboration and being a part of something bigger is prioritized instead of "making it", whereas in some European countries an overt desire for money would be considered tacky). In the US this also goes with the idea that those that didn't made it are "losers" -- and that they also only have themselves to blame ("didn't try enough" etc), something that's not the sentiment in other countries. * People that have a history of little over a century of being "free" from slavery (with all that means for their chances of inheriting family fortune accrued over the years, access to good education etc), and little over 50 years of not being officially seggregated, while still being unoficially and covertly seggregated, denied jobs, targeted by police etc because of they color. * Lack of "safety nets", a bad social services system, and a widespread contempt about the people making use of what exists (coupons, etc). * Lack of proper education and cultural awareness in inner city schools. Those kids are mostly left to fail. And other things besides. >and what evidence would prove your views wrong? Observing places with the same general conditions as described above which do not have elevated crime levels. For example France's example with the "banlieues" is a similar case, with similar output. >Or are your views not even wrong?* I find this uncalled for, not to mention insulting.
  - eivarv 12y ago
    I don't know about you, but I'm inclined to think that there are some pretty big socio-economic issues at play here.
  - lotsofmangos 12y ago
    I spent quite a few years in a nearly all-white area when I was growing up. It was full of folk taking heroin and hitting each other with bottles. I never could understand where they could muster the energy for so much fighting given the amount of heroin they were on. Nearly everywhere I have lived since has both been a lot more culturally mixed and a hell of a lot less bat-shit psycho.
  - spopejoy 12y ago
    What's unfortunate is this attitude of "just face it, everybody stays away from (poor|black|stupid|ugly|martian) people, anybody who denies it is a hypocrite". Speak for yourself, own up to your prejudices, don't project them on others. I've lived in "half-black" (wtf?? more like just "black") neighborhoods in Brooklyn, and Oakland CA. I prefer it to lily-white neighborhoods. Got carjacked once, have bars on my windows currently, projects are nearby. There's also a vibrancy to the neighborhood, in the music, the clothes, the attitude, that is precious. There are cultural differences, if you talk to folks on the street it's best to be sensitive and aware of nuances of communication. The reward is fresh perspectives, genuine encounters with different people. It's just plain stimulating. And no Starbucks either. Sure, my ideal neighborhood would be less impacted by poverty, but I would slit my wrists if I lived in Park Slope or the Upper West Side.
  - coldtea 12y ago
    >No white person in their right mind would honestly prefer to live in a half-black community over an all-white community. Well, some do. In their right minds et all. And could not care less about such racist BS. Except if you mean that the black neighborhood is poorer and less developed, so they might prefer the richer one. Here's a well known example: [Johny Otis] grew up in a predominantly black neighborhood in Berkeley, California, where his father owned a neighborhood grocery store. Otis became well known for his choice to live his professional and personal life as a member of the African-American community. He wrote, "As a kid I decided that if our society dictated that one had to be black or white, I would be black.
  - dragonwriter 12y ago
    > No white person in their right mind would honestly prefer to live in a half-black community over an all-white community. I think the problem here is that you confusing "who shares my personal preferences" with "in the right mind". The two concepts are radically different.
- yummyfajitas 12y ago
  Not really true, at least if physics/chemistry intuition can be trusted. Absent a segregating force (e.g. dipole attraction, what causes oil to separate from water), one expects two fluids to eventually become well mixed. Conversely, if you mix two fluids which have a segregating force, you don't expect them to stay mixed. Intrinsic properties of the fluids drive the level of segregation - anything else is just temporary. But maybe I'm just a physicist overreaching beyond my field. Why do you believe initial condition is important? [edit: simulations posted elsewhere in the thread agree with this: http://ncase.me/polygons/ http://ncase.me/polygons/ ]
kingmanaz 12y ago
Or maybe self-righteous Zionists like Einstein could try diversifying their own promised land before proscribing said diversity to others? As it stands, today Palestinian's are in camps, today Ethiopian Jews are deported, and all the while the past sins of the gentiles are ever decried on the airwaves.
- eropple 12y ago
  I assume, before you posted this angry message, that you refreshed yourself on the differences between Labor Zionism and the right wing flavor in power in the state of Israel? And took into account that this was written in 1946? No? Okay then.
  - sirfapsalot 12y ago
    Nice "no true Scotsman" fallacy.
  - eropple 12y ago
    The poster of the dead comment that is a sibling to this one is totally invited to tell me how I committed a no-true-Scotsman fallacy. While he's at it, though, I really hope he's going to explain how I'm wrong, and not just blow his whistle, scream about fallacies, and say it's a five yard penalty, still second down.

More diversity (in neighborhoods, in workplaces, in schools) would certainly help Maybe instead of forcing segregation, or forcing integration, freedom of association could be tried?

moron4hire 12y ago

Unfortunately, once communities start out segregated, they stay segregated.

itjustdontwork 12y ago
Unfortunately Why is it unfortunate? No white person in their right mind would honestly prefer to live in a half-black community over an all-white community. Sure, they may say they would to save political face, or to look benevolent or "tolerant" and progressive, but deep down? No. The difference in crime rates and quality of life is just astounding. To prefer to live amongst more blacks is to prefer to be more at risk of having a violent (or other) crime committed against you and having your property values diminish greatly. Yes there are lots of bad white people out there but they're much less concentrated within the race.
- moron4hire 12y ago
  I think you need to take a look at crime statistics again. They're income-based, not race-based. In the United States, poor often also means minority, but it's not race that makes inner cities violent. It's destitution, and the desperation it causes.
  - yummyfajitas 12y ago
    I'm not remotely defending his thesis (and my life choices contradict his claims pretty well) but you are simply wrong about the crime stats. To choose one category of crime, blacks make up about half of of murderers. However, there are twice as many poor whites as there are poor blacks. http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2012/crime-in-the-u.s.-2012/offenses-known-to-law-enforcement/expanded-homicide/expanded_homicide_data_table_3_murder_offenders_by_age_sex_and_race_2012.xls http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2012/c... http://kff.org/other/state-indicator/poverty-rate-by-raceethnicity/ http://kff.org/other/state-indicator/poverty-rate-by-raceeth... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_States#Race_and_ethnicity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_Sta... Further, international comparisons suggest you are wrong about American-style "destitution" causing crime. I know many professionals (I live in India) who are far more "destitute" than any poor American (at least in terms of goods and services they can afford). Strangely they don't turn to crime at anywhere near the rates Americans (of any race) do.
    - coldtea 12y ago
      >To choose one category of crime, blacks make up about half of of murderers. However, there are twice as many poor whites as there are poor blacks. Those whites don't have the same heritage of poverty, bad education and racism against them though. Nor are over-represented by a huge margin in incarceration rates. >Further, international comparisons suggest you are wrong about American-style "destitution" causing crime. I know many professionals (I live in India) who are far more "destitute" than any poor American (at least in terms of goods and services they can afford). Strangely they don't turn to crime at anywhere near the rates Americans (of any race) do. "American style" is not just about being poor / destitute and not being able to afford things. It's about the particular flavor of being that, in the context of the general societies attitude, prevalent climate, ways to deal with it, etc. So people in India being "far more destitute" doesn't mean they share the "American-style "destitution"".
      - yummyfajitas 12y ago
        Moron4hire stated a very clear theory: the disparity in crime rates is caused by income/poverty. That particular theory is wrong. Now you seem to be claiming that the disparity in crime rates is caused by some complex combination of things. Can you clearly state what that combination is and what evidence would prove your views wrong? Or are your views not even wrong?
        coldtea 12y ago
        >Now you seem to be claiming that the disparity in crime rates is caused by some complex combination of things. Not just me. Sociologists also. >Can you clearly state what that combination is * Emphasis on extreme individualism (everyone for himself, or at best, his family) that destroys community bonds (that in other places serve to provide assistance to the individual, guidance etc). * Extremely materialistic societal views, where the official national "dream" is about making loads of money. (to prevent easy rebuttals: almost everywhere people would like to make loads of money, the difference is in how is this accepted / embedded in the collective psyche. E.g. in Japan, for an example, collaboration and being a part of something bigger is prioritized instead of "making it", whereas in some European countries an overt desire for money would be considered tacky). In the US this also goes with the idea that those that didn't made it are "losers" -- and that they also only have themselves to blame ("didn't try enough" etc), something that's not the sentiment in other countries. * People that have a history of little over a century of being "free" from slavery (with all that means for their chances of inheriting family fortune accrued over the years, access to good education etc), and little over 50 years of not being officially seggregated, while still being unoficially and covertly seggregated, denied jobs, targeted by police etc because of they color. * Lack of "safety nets", a bad social services system, and a widespread contempt about the people making use of what exists (coupons, etc). * Lack of proper education and cultural awareness in inner city schools. Those kids are mostly left to fail. And other things besides. >and what evidence would prove your views wrong? Observing places with the same general conditions as described above which do not have elevated crime levels. For example France's example with the "banlieues" is a similar case, with similar output. >Or are your views not even wrong?* I find this uncalled for, not to mention insulting.
- eivarv 12y ago
  I don't know about you, but I'm inclined to think that there are some pretty big socio-economic issues at play here.
- lotsofmangos 12y ago
  I spent quite a few years in a nearly all-white area when I was growing up. It was full of folk taking heroin and hitting each other with bottles. I never could understand where they could muster the energy for so much fighting given the amount of heroin they were on. Nearly everywhere I have lived since has both been a lot more culturally mixed and a hell of a lot less bat-shit psycho.
- spopejoy 12y ago
  What's unfortunate is this attitude of "just face it, everybody stays away from (poor|black|stupid|ugly|martian) people, anybody who denies it is a hypocrite". Speak for yourself, own up to your prejudices, don't project them on others. I've lived in "half-black" (wtf?? more like just "black") neighborhoods in Brooklyn, and Oakland CA. I prefer it to lily-white neighborhoods. Got carjacked once, have bars on my windows currently, projects are nearby. There's also a vibrancy to the neighborhood, in the music, the clothes, the attitude, that is precious. There are cultural differences, if you talk to folks on the street it's best to be sensitive and aware of nuances of communication. The reward is fresh perspectives, genuine encounters with different people. It's just plain stimulating. And no Starbucks either. Sure, my ideal neighborhood would be less impacted by poverty, but I would slit my wrists if I lived in Park Slope or the Upper West Side.
- coldtea 12y ago
  >No white person in their right mind would honestly prefer to live in a half-black community over an all-white community. Well, some do. In their right minds et all. And could not care less about such racist BS. Except if you mean that the black neighborhood is poorer and less developed, so they might prefer the richer one. Here's a well known example: [Johny Otis] grew up in a predominantly black neighborhood in Berkeley, California, where his father owned a neighborhood grocery store. Otis became well known for his choice to live his professional and personal life as a member of the African-American community. He wrote, "As a kid I decided that if our society dictated that one had to be black or white, I would be black.
- dragonwriter 12y ago
  > No white person in their right mind would honestly prefer to live in a half-black community over an all-white community. I think the problem here is that you confusing "who shares my personal preferences" with "in the right mind". The two concepts are radically different.
yummyfajitas 12y ago
Not really true, at least if physics/chemistry intuition can be trusted. Absent a segregating force (e.g. dipole attraction, what causes oil to separate from water), one expects two fluids to eventually become well mixed. Conversely, if you mix two fluids which have a segregating force, you don't expect them to stay mixed. Intrinsic properties of the fluids drive the level of segregation - anything else is just temporary. But maybe I'm just a physicist overreaching beyond my field. Why do you believe initial condition is important? [edit: simulations posted elsewhere in the thread agree with this: http://ncase.me/polygons/ http://ncase.me/polygons/ ]

kingmanaz 12y ago

Or maybe self-righteous Zionists like Einstein could try diversifying their own promised land before proscribing said diversity to others? As it stands, today Palestinian's are in camps, today Ethiopian Jews are deported, and all the while the past sins of the gentiles are ever decried on the airwaves.

eropple 12y ago
I assume, before you posted this angry message, that you refreshed yourself on the differences between Labor Zionism and the right wing flavor in power in the state of Israel? And took into account that this was written in 1946? No? Okay then.
- sirfapsalot 12y ago
  Nice "no true Scotsman" fallacy.
- eropple 12y ago
  The poster of the dead comment that is a sibling to this one is totally invited to tell me how I committed a no-true-Scotsman fallacy. While he's at it, though, I really hope he's going to explain how I'm wrong, and not just blow his whistle, scream about fallacies, and say it's a five yard penalty, still second down.