3 ms·

Anonymous message boards truly are an ugly place. One very accomplished woman speaks out about her mostly positive but colored with some negative experiences in

Anonymous message boards truly are an ugly place. One very accomplished woman speaks out about her mostly positive but colored with some negative experiences in the tech world and the top comment is an anti-affirmative action rant (bears and foxes) that brings out a bunch of old tropes while completely ignoring the history of our industry.

ANTSANTS 12y ago
How dare people express differing opinions.
malandrew 12y ago
Here's a history lesson: The change in gender ratios in our industry are very closely related to the rise of the mini-computer. Back when only companies like IBM and their customers owned computers, there was a much more equal gender ratio. When the mini-computer came about, the bears took interest in mini-computers. There were male bears and female bears. Disruptive innovation also disrupted the gender ratio. For example, here's a Google Image Search for Homebrew Computer Club: https://www.google.com/search?q=Homebrew+Computer+Club&es_sm=91&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=PemNVPfBHMbSoASQ74KQBw&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAQ&biw=1573&bih=952 https://www.google.com/search?q=Homebrew+Computer+Club&es_sm... As you can see from the group images, the ratio of men to women in the Homebrew Computer Club was much skewed in having more men than women than was observed in the computing industry at the time (mainframes and whatnot). Go back and watch Triumph of the Nerds, narrated by Cringely and you'll see a completely different industry today. That documentary was created right at the beginning of tech becoming mainstream and money becoming the focus. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuBXbvl1Sg4#t=4m39s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuBXbvl1Sg4#t=4m39s (watch about 5 minutes. the interview with Woz at 11m47s is worth a watch too) Look at the people in that video. Not a fox in sight, male (brogrammers) or female. These are people who were pursing their interest in computing despite being at the bottom of the social ladder. Woz even describes the PDP-8 manual as a being like a bible. Show me anyone who would have been envious of this lifestyle back in the 80s and 90s and I'll show you someone that is a nerd through and through and probably oblivious to gender or possibly even the opposite sex. I don't know about others here, but when I got involved with programming (~12 y.o.) in 94 or so, I was as alone as you could get. There were no other boys or girls. I had no role models. Neither of my parents were in tech. Prior to learning to program, I spend hours in my basement taking junk electronics apart that I found in the high school dumpster. None of my friends did this. When I decided I wanted to learn to program, I had to find out on my own about HS courses and courses at the local computer shop. I took a short visual basic course at the local computer shop (IIRC only 3 other people took the class with me) before I took a summer programming course at the local high school, where I was 12 years old and IIRC everyone else in the class was a sophomore or older and I don't even know what the gender ratio was in the class. It was irrelevant to me at the time. Unfortunately my relationship with programming took a 10+ hiatus when my family moved and I was no longer at a school that had support for programming when I first arrived and when AP computer science was added, the teacher was so bad that it killed my decision to go to school for CS (I went into physics instead). Anyone who is a bear cub today, boy or girl, white or black, enjoys several orders of magnitude more privilege in becoming involved with computers and programming that I could ever have dreamed of growing up interested in computers in the mid-90s. If I could be the same precocious 12 y.o. as I was in the mid-90s but instead in 2014, I would jump at the opportunity. There are no no real barriers to getting involved in programming today relative to two decades ago. If someone is truly a bear, then their gender or race are a insignificant relative to the privilege of being able to involve yourself in programming in 2014, with the many resources out there to help you learn that didn't exist when I was a kid. Foxes, male or female, only care about being included in tech now because there is a lot of money and job growth in this industry. No one was making a big deal about being included when being a nerd was socially undesirable. Furthermore, it's worth nothing that some of the female bears now resent the female foxes because they have made their life worse [0]. [0] http://www.linuxjournal.com/content/girls-and-software http://www.linuxjournal.com/content/girls-and-software [1] http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/appendixb.html http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/appendixb.html

ANTSANTS 12y ago

How dare people express differing opinions.

malandrew 12y ago

Here's a history lesson: The change in gender ratios in our industry are very closely related to the rise of the mini-computer. Back when only companies like IBM and their customers owned computers, there was a much more equal gender ratio. When the mini-computer came about, the bears took interest in mini-computers. There were male bears and female bears. Disruptive innovation also disrupted the gender ratio. For example, here's a Google Image Search for Homebrew Computer Club: https://www.google.com/search?q=Homebrew+Computer+Club&es_sm=91&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=PemNVPfBHMbSoASQ74KQBw&ved=0CAgQ_AUoAQ&biw=1573&bih=952 https://www.google.com/search?q=Homebrew+Computer+Club&es_sm... As you can see from the group images, the ratio of men to women in the Homebrew Computer Club was much skewed in having more men than women than was observed in the computing industry at the time (mainframes and whatnot). Go back and watch Triumph of the Nerds, narrated by Cringely and you'll see a completely different industry today. That documentary was created right at the beginning of tech becoming mainstream and money becoming the focus. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuBXbvl1Sg4#t=4m39s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuBXbvl1Sg4#t=4m39s (watch about 5 minutes. the interview with Woz at 11m47s is worth a watch too) Look at the people in that video. Not a fox in sight, male (brogrammers) or female. These are people who were pursing their interest in computing despite being at the bottom of the social ladder. Woz even describes the PDP-8 manual as a being like a bible. Show me anyone who would have been envious of this lifestyle back in the 80s and 90s and I'll show you someone that is a nerd through and through and probably oblivious to gender or possibly even the opposite sex. I don't know about others here, but when I got involved with programming (~12 y.o.) in 94 or so, I was as alone as you could get. There were no other boys or girls. I had no role models. Neither of my parents were in tech. Prior to learning to program, I spend hours in my basement taking junk electronics apart that I found in the high school dumpster. None of my friends did this. When I decided I wanted to learn to program, I had to find out on my own about HS courses and courses at the local computer shop. I took a short visual basic course at the local computer shop (IIRC only 3 other people took the class with me) before I took a summer programming course at the local high school, where I was 12 years old and IIRC everyone else in the class was a sophomore or older and I don't even know what the gender ratio was in the class. It was irrelevant to me at the time. Unfortunately my relationship with programming took a 10+ hiatus when my family moved and I was no longer at a school that had support for programming when I first arrived and when AP computer science was added, the teacher was so bad that it killed my decision to go to school for CS (I went into physics instead). Anyone who is a bear cub today, boy or girl, white or black, enjoys several orders of magnitude more privilege in becoming involved with computers and programming that I could ever have dreamed of growing up interested in computers in the mid-90s. If I could be the same precocious 12 y.o. as I was in the mid-90s but instead in 2014, I would jump at the opportunity. There are no no real barriers to getting involved in programming today relative to two decades ago. If someone is truly a bear, then their gender or race are a insignificant relative to the privilege of being able to involve yourself in programming in 2014, with the many resources out there to help you learn that didn't exist when I was a kid. Foxes, male or female, only care about being included in tech now because there is a lot of money and job growth in this industry. No one was making a big deal about being included when being a nerd was socially undesirable. Furthermore, it's worth nothing that some of the female bears now resent the female foxes because they have made their life worse [0]. [0] http://www.linuxjournal.com/content/girls-and-software http://www.linuxjournal.com/content/girls-and-software [1] http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/appendixb.html http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/appendixb.html