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>In the very final couple of paragraphs he attempts to say that because large scale aid programs don't work then human rights treaties are "an act of hubris".

>In the very final couple of paragraphs he attempts to say that because large scale aid programs don't work then human rights treaties are "an act of hubris". The author explained why large scale aid programs don't work - because large scale programs treat foreign cultures like they are western cultures, or aspire to be. Every culture's idea of "human rights" is different. For example, Europe believes the freedom of speech does not extend to libel or defamation. America does. Islamic states don't think freedom of speech extends towards religions. I agree with the article, and I would go one step further. There is no such thing as human rights. They are just wishful ideals humanity invented.

Natsu 12y ago
> For example, Europe believes the freedom of speech does not extend to libel or defamation. America does Perhaps you were thinking of how truth is a shield against charges of defamation, but I feel compelled to point out that defamation is unlawful in the US.
seventytwo 12y ago
An extension of the old "if everyone was just like me, the world would be a better place" kind of thinking.
- Sorgam 12y ago
  Indeed. Restrictions on women in Muslim countries sound bad, but western countries don't allow women to go topless in public and don't allow prisoners or children to work for money at their own discretion. They even have compulsory detention for children (school), which is a human right sacrificed in the name of economic development but doesn't get complaints because us westerners are used to it. If only everyone else was just like us we could forget those inconvenient human rights and just do things the normal proper way (sarcasm).
  - danbruc 12y ago
    If you really want to you can walk around topless in Germany. It is also legal in New York.
    - chopin 12y ago
      In Germany, you can't (Erregung öffentlichen Ärgernisses). There are (gated) semi-public areas where you can, but that's very limited.
      - danbruc 12y ago
        This is for sexual activities in the public and just being nude does (usually) not qualify for that. Somebody could try to go after you for molestation but that is pretty unlikely. Even being completely naked should usually not get you into real trouble besides the police asking you to get some cloths or leave the place. But nudists indeed prefer a bit of separation to avoid any possible conflict.
        chopin 12y ago
        If the police asks you to put some clothes on then, well, you can't walk nude publicly. They won't let you go without doing that. That was my entire point. If you meant, you can walk nude in public without fearing draconian punishment then, yes, Germany is luckily a country having a sense for proportionate punishments.
danbruc 12y ago
If you base your world view on religion and absolute moral values you may believe that there are real rights but besides that I would assume that most people agree that rights are just human conventions.
- rayiner 12y ago
  Interestingly, HN seems to have a large number of people at the intersection of athiesm and absolute moral rights.
  - danbruc 12y ago
    I would assume that is the same thing as atheism and agnosticism - if you are pedantic you have to call yourself an agnostic but for all practical purposes atheist will do. So even if you practically believe in absolute moral values under close inspection you end up with men made conventions.
  - jqm 12y ago
    I believe these are one and the same at the bottom of it all... When humanity is the ultimate authority and life is finite, rights become of paramount importance. When we start to assume justice or reward in a life to come (or reward in the perfect communist state to come if we just make some sacrifices now...), or we assume a higher unfathomable plan behind every event, or when we start to think that the individual is less important than the congregation, human rights tend to go right out the window. A casual glance back through history seems to show this to be the case.
    - danbruc 12y ago
      I think rayiner just wanted to express that atheism and absolute moral values is a common combination of believes although they are quite incompatible.
      - jqm 12y ago
        no they aren't.
D_Alex 12y ago
>There is no such thing as human rights. They are just wishful ideals humanity invented. So... there are no such things as wishful ideals that humanity invented? Are "human rights" any less real than other idealised human concepts, for example "justice"? Or are you saying that they are unachievable, and thus not worth striving towards?

Natsu 12y ago

> For example, Europe believes the freedom of speech does not extend to libel or defamation. America does Perhaps you were thinking of how truth is a shield against charges of defamation, but I feel compelled to point out that defamation is unlawful in the US.

seventytwo 12y ago

An extension of the old "if everyone was just like me, the world would be a better place" kind of thinking.

Sorgam 12y ago
Indeed. Restrictions on women in Muslim countries sound bad, but western countries don't allow women to go topless in public and don't allow prisoners or children to work for money at their own discretion. They even have compulsory detention for children (school), which is a human right sacrificed in the name of economic development but doesn't get complaints because us westerners are used to it. If only everyone else was just like us we could forget those inconvenient human rights and just do things the normal proper way (sarcasm).
- danbruc 12y ago
  If you really want to you can walk around topless in Germany. It is also legal in New York.
  - chopin 12y ago
    In Germany, you can't (Erregung öffentlichen Ärgernisses). There are (gated) semi-public areas where you can, but that's very limited.
    - danbruc 12y ago
      This is for sexual activities in the public and just being nude does (usually) not qualify for that. Somebody could try to go after you for molestation but that is pretty unlikely. Even being completely naked should usually not get you into real trouble besides the police asking you to get some cloths or leave the place. But nudists indeed prefer a bit of separation to avoid any possible conflict.
      - chopin 12y ago
        If the police asks you to put some clothes on then, well, you can't walk nude publicly. They won't let you go without doing that. That was my entire point. If you meant, you can walk nude in public without fearing draconian punishment then, yes, Germany is luckily a country having a sense for proportionate punishments.

danbruc 12y ago

If you base your world view on religion and absolute moral values you may believe that there are real rights but besides that I would assume that most people agree that rights are just human conventions.

rayiner 12y ago
Interestingly, HN seems to have a large number of people at the intersection of athiesm and absolute moral rights.
- danbruc 12y ago
  I would assume that is the same thing as atheism and agnosticism - if you are pedantic you have to call yourself an agnostic but for all practical purposes atheist will do. So even if you practically believe in absolute moral values under close inspection you end up with men made conventions.
- jqm 12y ago
  I believe these are one and the same at the bottom of it all... When humanity is the ultimate authority and life is finite, rights become of paramount importance. When we start to assume justice or reward in a life to come (or reward in the perfect communist state to come if we just make some sacrifices now...), or we assume a higher unfathomable plan behind every event, or when we start to think that the individual is less important than the congregation, human rights tend to go right out the window. A casual glance back through history seems to show this to be the case.
  - danbruc 12y ago
    I think rayiner just wanted to express that atheism and absolute moral values is a common combination of believes although they are quite incompatible.
    - jqm 12y ago
      no they aren't.

D_Alex 12y ago

>There is no such thing as human rights. They are just wishful ideals humanity invented. So... there are no such things as wishful ideals that humanity invented? Are "human rights" any less real than other idealised human concepts, for example "justice"? Or are you saying that they are unachievable, and thus not worth striving towards?