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> Freedom of speech is the political right to communicate one's opinions and ideas using one's body and property to anyone who is willing to receive them. Why

> Freedom of speech is the political right to communicate one's opinions and ideas using one's body and property to anyone who is willing to receive them. Why do people confuse the concept of free speech with some specific political or legal idea? There are many other ways in which a reduction of free speech is extremely harmful. Look at the great firewall of China blocking democratic content, look at reviews being censored by websites or posters afraid of lawsuits. Free speech is important and extends far outside of politics. So please, tell me, is this number illegal to possess or distribute? What sort of disturbing thought or speech crime is that? 1272705567343948816021070860118743823207760906496 I don't think I want to live anywhere where it's illegal to possess or distribute a number.

aragot 12y ago
Consequently, it should be understood that bytes can't be stopped from being copied. I wish it wasn't just a point of view. What we're seeing with copyright is governments trying to prevent bits from being copied, which is a pharaonic task and a waste of resources.
- ultramancool 12y ago
  Well said, it's definitely something that needs to be discussed. That however is separate from distributing simple numbers, which do not ever construct a work, in my opinion.
kristiandupont 12y ago
Using Chinese censorship to argue about pirated content is, imo, a variation of the slippery slope fallacy. If someone obtained your family's credit card numbers and PINs, you would consider them to be in their good right to distribute them freely? They're just numbers, after all.
- ultramancool 12y ago
  > Using Chinese censorship to argue about pirated content is, imo, a variation of the slippery slope fallacy. I was not trying to do so, just using it as an example of freedom of speech being good in other contexts than the purely political. But yes, credit card numbers are piss poor security wise. That's why banks essentially write replacements off. Compromise is expected.
- jimktrains2 12y ago
  There would be nothing I could do to prevent them from distributing them. All I can do is make the numbers useless.
jkaunisv1 12y ago
And we don't want to live with people who can engage in the intellectual dishonesty that a site dedicated and known for primarily listing numbers pointing to copies of somebody else's work, that they worked hard to create, is harmless. Yes, there are rich people who make money off of TV shows, movies, videogames, etc. But there are also regular hardworking people who depend on it for their living, and saying TPB is just exercising free speech really skips over the issue.
- ultramancool 12y ago
  > Yes, there are rich people who make money off of TV shows, movies, videogames, etc. But there are also regular hardworking people who depend on it for their living, and saying TPB is just exercising free speech really skips over the issue. Does it though? TPB themselves are not doing any sort of piracy, nor are they harming anyone. That exercise is left entirely up to the users. The only thing they do is distribute numbers, exactly like I just did. Your choice what you do with that. If you choose to use that number to harm someone, that's up to you, not me. I'm not at fault for giving you a number. Perhaps those users look at it from another perspective: maybe people shouldn't be making money like that. We live in a post-scarcity world with digital resources, we have no need for such people anymore. We've shown time and time again that even without enforcement, some will thrive and profit greatly, some will operate for free, and others will fall. Maybe it's time to just let it happen and give up on the use of coercive force to create a false market. I can't say whether it's right or wrong, I don't think there's a correct answer there, but you have to understand that different people view these issues entirely differently.
  - jkaunisv1 12y ago
    The world isn't theoretical. Context matters, intent matters. It's called the PIRATE bay for fucks sake. Sure, there is plenty of regular sharing on TPB. But the majority of it is pirated content that they are making a hell of a lot easier for people to access. This thread is really exposing to me the variety of views on the topic. I get your argument, but it's like you're deliberately ignoring the reality of how TPB is used. Which people are you talking about that we have no need for? The people who make the content? You don't feel we have a need for them? I love cutting out middle men as much as anyone, but eventually somebody has to make the product. I've seen people argue that authors shouldn't be paid for their work, they should do it as a side project of passion and be happy to see somebody reading a copy of their work. I'd much rather do my art all day than have to do it as a side project while I work at something else to pay the bills. And as an aside, we may live in a post-scarcity world but it sure as hell isn't distributed.

aragot 12y ago

Consequently, it should be understood that bytes can't be stopped from being copied. I wish it wasn't just a point of view. What we're seeing with copyright is governments trying to prevent bits from being copied, which is a pharaonic task and a waste of resources.

ultramancool 12y ago
Well said, it's definitely something that needs to be discussed. That however is separate from distributing simple numbers, which do not ever construct a work, in my opinion.

kristiandupont 12y ago

Using Chinese censorship to argue about pirated content is, imo, a variation of the slippery slope fallacy. If someone obtained your family's credit card numbers and PINs, you would consider them to be in their good right to distribute them freely? They're just numbers, after all.

ultramancool 12y ago
> Using Chinese censorship to argue about pirated content is, imo, a variation of the slippery slope fallacy. I was not trying to do so, just using it as an example of freedom of speech being good in other contexts than the purely political. But yes, credit card numbers are piss poor security wise. That's why banks essentially write replacements off. Compromise is expected.
jimktrains2 12y ago
There would be nothing I could do to prevent them from distributing them. All I can do is make the numbers useless.

jkaunisv1 12y ago

And we don't want to live with people who can engage in the intellectual dishonesty that a site dedicated and known for primarily listing numbers pointing to copies of somebody else's work, that they worked hard to create, is harmless. Yes, there are rich people who make money off of TV shows, movies, videogames, etc. But there are also regular hardworking people who depend on it for their living, and saying TPB is just exercising free speech really skips over the issue.

ultramancool 12y ago
> Yes, there are rich people who make money off of TV shows, movies, videogames, etc. But there are also regular hardworking people who depend on it for their living, and saying TPB is just exercising free speech really skips over the issue. Does it though? TPB themselves are not doing any sort of piracy, nor are they harming anyone. That exercise is left entirely up to the users. The only thing they do is distribute numbers, exactly like I just did. Your choice what you do with that. If you choose to use that number to harm someone, that's up to you, not me. I'm not at fault for giving you a number. Perhaps those users look at it from another perspective: maybe people shouldn't be making money like that. We live in a post-scarcity world with digital resources, we have no need for such people anymore. We've shown time and time again that even without enforcement, some will thrive and profit greatly, some will operate for free, and others will fall. Maybe it's time to just let it happen and give up on the use of coercive force to create a false market. I can't say whether it's right or wrong, I don't think there's a correct answer there, but you have to understand that different people view these issues entirely differently.
- jkaunisv1 12y ago
  The world isn't theoretical. Context matters, intent matters. It's called the PIRATE bay for fucks sake. Sure, there is plenty of regular sharing on TPB. But the majority of it is pirated content that they are making a hell of a lot easier for people to access. This thread is really exposing to me the variety of views on the topic. I get your argument, but it's like you're deliberately ignoring the reality of how TPB is used. Which people are you talking about that we have no need for? The people who make the content? You don't feel we have a need for them? I love cutting out middle men as much as anyone, but eventually somebody has to make the product. I've seen people argue that authors shouldn't be paid for their work, they should do it as a side project of passion and be happy to see somebody reading a copy of their work. I'd much rather do my art all day than have to do it as a side project while I work at something else to pay the bills. And as an aside, we may live in a post-scarcity world but it sure as hell isn't distributed.