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I wouldn't put Sunde in the same category as Snowden and Manning. The Pirate Bay isn't some noble cause like the latter two. It did have a minor effect of dis

I wouldn't put Sunde in the same category as Snowden and Manning. The Pirate Bay isn't some noble cause like the latter two. It did have a minor effect of disrupting the industry and accelerating the inevitable change in business model for the film and movie industry.

the8472 12y ago
> The Pirate Bay isn't some noble cause Consider it as a litmus test for free speech. Providing links to pirated content, not even the content itself, can easily be seen as free speech.
- hackerboos 12y ago
  I think you're really stretching it there. Freedom of speech is the political right to communicate one's opinions and ideas using one's body and property to anyone who is willing to receive them. Not sharing hashcodes to copyrighted works over the internet.
  - the8472 12y ago
    It stretches both ways. Think of other things that are legally considered free speech, things like corporate campaign spending.
  - stelonix 12y ago
    Somehow you see "links to hashes" as stretching freedom of speech and the ability to arbitrarily ban hashes in strings as the way it's supposed to be? I believe you and the parent post have fundamentally different views of what's right, just and moral, and any discussion between you and him/her or anyone else with the same views will lead to nothing.
    - icebraining 12y ago
      I believe you and the parent post have fundamentally different views of what's right, just and moral, and any discussion between you and him/her or anyone else with the same views will lead to nothing. Copyright discussions in a nutshell. That's why I only play for sport.
    - cinquemb 12y ago
      When people have fundamentally different views of what's right, just and moral, and when outcomes of creating things like tpb could land one in prison, what does one do if they want to live in an environment where creating things like tpb wont land them in prison?
      - deleted 12y ago
        [deleted]
  - ultramancool 12y ago
    > Freedom of speech is the political right to communicate one's opinions and ideas using one's body and property to anyone who is willing to receive them. Why do people confuse the concept of free speech with some specific political or legal idea? There are many other ways in which a reduction of free speech is extremely harmful. Look at the great firewall of China blocking democratic content, look at reviews being censored by websites or posters afraid of lawsuits. Free speech is important and extends far outside of politics. So please, tell me, is this number illegal to possess or distribute? What sort of disturbing thought or speech crime is that? 1272705567343948816021070860118743823207760906496 I don't think I want to live anywhere where it's illegal to possess or distribute a number.
    - aragot 12y ago
      Consequently, it should be understood that bytes can't be stopped from being copied. I wish it wasn't just a point of view. What we're seeing with copyright is governments trying to prevent bits from being copied, which is a pharaonic task and a waste of resources.
      - ultramancool 12y ago
        Well said, it's definitely something that needs to be discussed. That however is separate from distributing simple numbers, which do not ever construct a work, in my opinion.
    - kristiandupont 12y ago
      Using Chinese censorship to argue about pirated content is, imo, a variation of the slippery slope fallacy. If someone obtained your family's credit card numbers and PINs, you would consider them to be in their good right to distribute them freely? They're just numbers, after all.
      - ultramancool 12y ago
        > Using Chinese censorship to argue about pirated content is, imo, a variation of the slippery slope fallacy. I was not trying to do so, just using it as an example of freedom of speech being good in other contexts than the purely political. But yes, credit card numbers are piss poor security wise. That's why banks essentially write replacements off. Compromise is expected.
- icantthinkofone 12y ago
  Theft is theft, not free speech.
  - the8472 12y ago
    529C39CC24553DFE030119BD35E19884F34A65E0 Free speech or theft?
    - terrence_giggy 12y ago
      Context matters. I can yell FIRE in my own home, but I can't go into a crowded theatre and yell it. The hash as you post it here is meaningless. But elsewhere it could be the key to another's property.
      - the8472 12y ago
        Personally I think you should be free to yell "FIRE" in a theater too. If that started a panic and someone came to harm due to it then you might be held partially responsible to that harm, but so should those people who mindlessly trample on others without assessing the situation. But if nothing happened then there should be no reason to make your exclamation illegal. Of course you could still be thrown out of the theater for disrupting the performance, providing further disincentive for doing something like that, but that's separate from the legality of your speech.
      - 0x5f3759df-i 12y ago
        So piracy is fine if done in my own home?
      - ultramancool 12y ago
        > The hash as you post it here is meaningless. But elsewhere it could be the key to another's property. Not really, anyone who knows the basic structure of a magnet link can go... magnet:?xt=urn:btih:529C39CC24553DFE030119BD35E19884F34A65E0 And it's perfectly useful. Paste it into any BT client, wind up with a copy of... Windows 7 it looks like. Practically the same as finding the link on TPB. So, is this another's property or not? Did I just make it by appending a short string to turn it into a URL?
vidarh 12y ago
It isn't some noble cause because you presumably believe copyright is moral. To those who believe copyright, copyright in its current form, is an immoral restriction on free speech, it may very well be.
fnordfnordfnord 12y ago
For the wellbeing of civilization over the next century, copyright and freedom of speech will probably affect everyone to a greater degree than war crimes, or even pervasive spying. Also consider that Sunde has made a number of comments which are critical of TPB and how that project has turned out. So while TPB isn't necessarily the ideal, maybe more of a failed or partially-failed attempt.
BerislavLopac 12y ago
> It did have a minor effect of disrupting the industry and accelerating the inevitable change in business model for the film and movie industry. So? Why would any individual industry be exempt from disruption?

the8472 12y ago

> The Pirate Bay isn't some noble cause Consider it as a litmus test for free speech. Providing links to pirated content, not even the content itself, can easily be seen as free speech.

hackerboos 12y ago
I think you're really stretching it there. Freedom of speech is the political right to communicate one's opinions and ideas using one's body and property to anyone who is willing to receive them. Not sharing hashcodes to copyrighted works over the internet.
- the8472 12y ago
  It stretches both ways. Think of other things that are legally considered free speech, things like corporate campaign spending.
- stelonix 12y ago
  Somehow you see "links to hashes" as stretching freedom of speech and the ability to arbitrarily ban hashes in strings as the way it's supposed to be? I believe you and the parent post have fundamentally different views of what's right, just and moral, and any discussion between you and him/her or anyone else with the same views will lead to nothing.
  - icebraining 12y ago
    I believe you and the parent post have fundamentally different views of what's right, just and moral, and any discussion between you and him/her or anyone else with the same views will lead to nothing. Copyright discussions in a nutshell. That's why I only play for sport.
  - cinquemb 12y ago
    When people have fundamentally different views of what's right, just and moral, and when outcomes of creating things like tpb could land one in prison, what does one do if they want to live in an environment where creating things like tpb wont land them in prison?
    - deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
- ultramancool 12y ago
  > Freedom of speech is the political right to communicate one's opinions and ideas using one's body and property to anyone who is willing to receive them. Why do people confuse the concept of free speech with some specific political or legal idea? There are many other ways in which a reduction of free speech is extremely harmful. Look at the great firewall of China blocking democratic content, look at reviews being censored by websites or posters afraid of lawsuits. Free speech is important and extends far outside of politics. So please, tell me, is this number illegal to possess or distribute? What sort of disturbing thought or speech crime is that? 1272705567343948816021070860118743823207760906496 I don't think I want to live anywhere where it's illegal to possess or distribute a number.
  - aragot 12y ago
    Consequently, it should be understood that bytes can't be stopped from being copied. I wish it wasn't just a point of view. What we're seeing with copyright is governments trying to prevent bits from being copied, which is a pharaonic task and a waste of resources.
    - ultramancool 12y ago
      Well said, it's definitely something that needs to be discussed. That however is separate from distributing simple numbers, which do not ever construct a work, in my opinion.
  - kristiandupont 12y ago
    Using Chinese censorship to argue about pirated content is, imo, a variation of the slippery slope fallacy. If someone obtained your family's credit card numbers and PINs, you would consider them to be in their good right to distribute them freely? They're just numbers, after all.
    - ultramancool 12y ago
      > Using Chinese censorship to argue about pirated content is, imo, a variation of the slippery slope fallacy. I was not trying to do so, just using it as an example of freedom of speech being good in other contexts than the purely political. But yes, credit card numbers are piss poor security wise. That's why banks essentially write replacements off. Compromise is expected.
icantthinkofone 12y ago
Theft is theft, not free speech.
- the8472 12y ago
  529C39CC24553DFE030119BD35E19884F34A65E0 Free speech or theft?
  - terrence_giggy 12y ago
    Context matters. I can yell FIRE in my own home, but I can't go into a crowded theatre and yell it. The hash as you post it here is meaningless. But elsewhere it could be the key to another's property.
    - the8472 12y ago
      Personally I think you should be free to yell "FIRE" in a theater too. If that started a panic and someone came to harm due to it then you might be held partially responsible to that harm, but so should those people who mindlessly trample on others without assessing the situation. But if nothing happened then there should be no reason to make your exclamation illegal. Of course you could still be thrown out of the theater for disrupting the performance, providing further disincentive for doing something like that, but that's separate from the legality of your speech.
    - 0x5f3759df-i 12y ago
      So piracy is fine if done in my own home?
    - ultramancool 12y ago
      > The hash as you post it here is meaningless. But elsewhere it could be the key to another's property. Not really, anyone who knows the basic structure of a magnet link can go... magnet:?xt=urn:btih:529C39CC24553DFE030119BD35E19884F34A65E0 And it's perfectly useful. Paste it into any BT client, wind up with a copy of... Windows 7 it looks like. Practically the same as finding the link on TPB. So, is this another's property or not? Did I just make it by appending a short string to turn it into a URL?

vidarh 12y ago

It isn't some noble cause because you presumably believe copyright is moral. To those who believe copyright, copyright in its current form, is an immoral restriction on free speech, it may very well be.

fnordfnordfnord 12y ago

For the wellbeing of civilization over the next century, copyright and freedom of speech will probably affect everyone to a greater degree than war crimes, or even pervasive spying. Also consider that Sunde has made a number of comments which are critical of TPB and how that project has turned out. So while TPB isn't necessarily the ideal, maybe more of a failed or partially-failed attempt.

BerislavLopac 12y ago

> It did have a minor effect of disrupting the industry and accelerating the inevitable change in business model for the film and movie industry. So? Why would any individual industry be exempt from disruption?