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> how can Governments pay for services that a large number of the population uses, but doesn't pay What do you mean by "large number of the population"? Most o

> how can Governments pay for services that a large number of the population uses, but doesn't pay What do you mean by "large number of the population"? Most of the wasted money that Spain, Portugal and Greece pay are the interest on the loans they had to take to bail out the banks. Including having billions sitting around waiting for the banks to fail. Of course the banks say they don't need it, but the interest is almost nil, so they all took loans from that money to borrow to the economy with giant profits. Those loans provided by the international institutions are simply wealth redistribution, from the poorer southern countries to the richer countries.

antr 12y ago
> Most of the wasted money that Spain, Portugal and Greece pay are the interest on the loans they had to take to bail out the banks. I don't know how you draw that conclusion. What source are you using? Interest expenditure in Spain is around 3.5% of GDP, just look at the Eurostat numbers. Then, mixing Spain's and Portugal's economic situation with Greece's is just comparing apple and oranges, as both suffer crisis for completely different reasons. Have a start here: http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/statistics_explained/index.php/Government_finance_statistics http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/statistics_explained/index.... Then, > Those loans provided by the international institutions are simply wealth redistribution, from the poorer southern countries to the richer countries. If no loans where provided the savings of millions of people would of been wiped out, literary. It seems you would of preferred that.
- JetSpiegel 12y ago
  3.5% of GDP is a large part of the cuts being applied now. The main disagreement is that when the richer countries ignored the deficit limits to increase investment in their economies had no sanctions, while the smaller countries are forced into signing treaties that forbid public investment, in economies that are highly dependant on the public sector. Germany also benefits from being in the common market by having a larger market for their goods, but denies borrowing money for the entire EU as a whole, benefiting selfishly from their lower interest rates. They get the benefits of the EU with no downsides. > If no loans where provided the savings of millions of people would of been wiped out, literary. The amount of money in low risk investments and deposits it's a small fraction of the bailout. Not just that, the European Central Bank guarantees 100k€ for each person, no questions asked. It's the investment banking that creates massive losses.
  - antr 12y ago
    So now, to you, 3.5% is "Most of the wasted money"... 3.5% is no economic pressure compared to the cost of running oversized Government structures. Back in the 80's when cost of capital for these Governments was in the 10%-15% no one really complained. Can you cite the source where "countries ignored the deficit limits to increase investment" and "while the smaller countries are forced into signing treaties that forbid public investment". I'm fascinated by this opinion, a source would be useful, and the name and date of the agreement too. Again, can you provide a source for the use of capital injections as you seem to know "The amount of money in low risk investments and deposits it's a small fraction of the bailout". How small is that fraction, where can I see that split? I've got a sense that you are quoting political propaganda, but no hard evidence. But if you want to argue with no substance, and say that 2+2=78, I'm not here to for that.
    - JetSpiegel 12y ago
      > countries ignored the deficit limits to increase investment EU finance ministers reject the European Commission’s recommendation to initiate sanctions proceedings against France and Germany for flouting the Stability and Growth Pact’s rules. http://ec.europa.eu/economy_finance/economic_governance/timeline/index_en.htm http://ec.europa.eu/economy_finance/economic_governance/time... > smaller countries are forced into signing treaties that forbid public investment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Fiscal_Compact https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Fiscal_Compact This treaty defines goals that in practice leave no budget for public investment. In the last years Portugal's debt ballooned to 125% of GDP due to all the austerity implemented. Getting this to lower to the standards of the treaty in such short time forces any government to cut spending in essential public services, sell at discount prices natural monopolies such as electricity and water distribution and raise taxes (50%+ total rate for freelancers). As for the last one, at least in Portugal the biggest amount of money was spend covering for BPN's losses, a small bank with a market share of 2% that required upwards of 5 billion euros of taxpayer's money. Another giant money sink was BPP, an investment bank.
      - antr 12y ago

antr 12y ago

> Most of the wasted money that Spain, Portugal and Greece pay are the interest on the loans they had to take to bail out the banks. I don't know how you draw that conclusion. What source are you using? Interest expenditure in Spain is around 3.5% of GDP, just look at the Eurostat numbers. Then, mixing Spain's and Portugal's economic situation with Greece's is just comparing apple and oranges, as both suffer crisis for completely different reasons. Have a start here: http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/statistics_explained/index.php/Government_finance_statistics http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/statistics_explained/index.... Then, > Those loans provided by the international institutions are simply wealth redistribution, from the poorer southern countries to the richer countries. If no loans where provided the savings of millions of people would of been wiped out, literary. It seems you would of preferred that.

JetSpiegel 12y ago
3.5% of GDP is a large part of the cuts being applied now. The main disagreement is that when the richer countries ignored the deficit limits to increase investment in their economies had no sanctions, while the smaller countries are forced into signing treaties that forbid public investment, in economies that are highly dependant on the public sector. Germany also benefits from being in the common market by having a larger market for their goods, but denies borrowing money for the entire EU as a whole, benefiting selfishly from their lower interest rates. They get the benefits of the EU with no downsides. > If no loans where provided the savings of millions of people would of been wiped out, literary. The amount of money in low risk investments and deposits it's a small fraction of the bailout. Not just that, the European Central Bank guarantees 100k€ for each person, no questions asked. It's the investment banking that creates massive losses.
- antr 12y ago
  So now, to you, 3.5% is "Most of the wasted money"... 3.5% is no economic pressure compared to the cost of running oversized Government structures. Back in the 80's when cost of capital for these Governments was in the 10%-15% no one really complained. Can you cite the source where "countries ignored the deficit limits to increase investment" and "while the smaller countries are forced into signing treaties that forbid public investment". I'm fascinated by this opinion, a source would be useful, and the name and date of the agreement too. Again, can you provide a source for the use of capital injections as you seem to know "The amount of money in low risk investments and deposits it's a small fraction of the bailout". How small is that fraction, where can I see that split? I've got a sense that you are quoting political propaganda, but no hard evidence. But if you want to argue with no substance, and say that 2+2=78, I'm not here to for that.
  - JetSpiegel 12y ago
    > countries ignored the deficit limits to increase investment EU finance ministers reject the European Commission’s recommendation to initiate sanctions proceedings against France and Germany for flouting the Stability and Growth Pact’s rules. http://ec.europa.eu/economy_finance/economic_governance/timeline/index_en.htm http://ec.europa.eu/economy_finance/economic_governance/time... > smaller countries are forced into signing treaties that forbid public investment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Fiscal_Compact https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Fiscal_Compact This treaty defines goals that in practice leave no budget for public investment. In the last years Portugal's debt ballooned to 125% of GDP due to all the austerity implemented. Getting this to lower to the standards of the treaty in such short time forces any government to cut spending in essential public services, sell at discount prices natural monopolies such as electricity and water distribution and raise taxes (50%+ total rate for freelancers). As for the last one, at least in Portugal the biggest amount of money was spend covering for BPN's losses, a small bank with a market share of 2% that required upwards of 5 billion euros of taxpayer's money. Another giant money sink was BPP, an investment bank.
    - antr 12y ago