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And now things just got interesting. I'll put my money on the availability of Go on Android being the catalyst for its future hockey stick growth.

pjmlp 12y ago
For that really to happen, the Android team needs to give some love to alternative languages. From their Fireside talk I won't expect any change.
- Kiro 12y ago
  > From their Fireside talk I won't expect any change. Why?
  - pjmlp 12y ago
    They stated that Java is the language platform, laught at the idea someone would like to try to use Scala instead and mentioned you are pretty much on your own if you feel like using the NDK. Search for Google IO 2014 Android Fireside, video is available.
    - nly 12y ago
      They'll change their tune when Android starts losing market share.
Dewie 12y ago
I don't really see it - a language made for systems programming (read: non-application development) being used for developing Android apps? Or is there some other kind of Android development in mind, here?
- laumars 12y ago
  Pretty much any language can be used to program pretty much anything these days. After all, a decade or so ago people would have sniffed at the idea of Javascript running on the server side, Python being used in physics labs and anything other than C++ or Perl for UNIX systems programming (a touch of an exaggeration, but you get my point :)) These days the limitation of a programming language is the programmer him or herself.
  - mtbcoder 12y ago
    Well, provided a strong implementation of your language exists for the platform/environment you are developing for.
- jtakkala 12y ago
  I think it was Rob Pike who later said he regretted using the term "systems programming" to describe Go. They never meant the phrase to mean purely operating system tools and programs (ie. not web applications or interactive end-user applications), which would be rather limiting. Instead, he said he said they meant it as a language for composing systems, as for example a typical SOA web site may be, or even for application development as you've alluded to. Edit: Rob mentions it here at 06:50: http://channel9.msdn.com/Events/Lang-NEXT/Lang-NEXT-2014/Panel-Systems-Programming-Languages-in-2014-and-Beyond http://channel9.msdn.com/Events/Lang-NEXT/Lang-NEXT-2014/Pan...
  - pjmlp 12y ago
    Real systems programming would be possible with a little more help. Meaning a few more operations exposed in unsafe. The problem is that the average developers never saw Oberon line of languages or are unaware how much of libc is actually written in Assembly. Maybe with Go 1.5 fully re-written in Go, it will be easier to sell this scenario.
    - orbifold 12y ago
      According to Github 8.4% of glibc is written in assembly. You would actually expect that to be an over estimate, since assembly is guaranteed to be machine dependent.
      - ahh 12y ago
        I suspect this is a significant underestimate: glibc heavily relies on generated assembly (they have a set of scripts to generate boilerplate asm functions for system calls) and inline assembly (which gets defined once, probably counted as C by github, and used many times.)
  - Dewie 12y ago
    With that in mind, I tried to use the phrase in a more wide sense than some other language communities would. But you're right that that phrase might as well be disassociated with the language at this point, to avoid confusion. Better to find a new word for it.
- rakoo 12y ago
  An app isn't only about the ui -- maybe you'll need some background operations, and you'll need to coordinate between multiple inputs. Go sounds more suited than Java for that.
- jksmith 12y ago
  Sure. For the internet to be fully realized, all endpoints need to provide services just as easily as consume services. The whole thing is a system.
bsaul 12y ago
I would be extremely surprised to see a language having no class, no inheritance and no good IDE become successfull in modern app development. Android devs are used to such a different type of programming, i don't expect them to accept banging their heads on so many walls for such little gains. Ps : my stand is the opposite for server side dev.
- Morgawr 12y ago
  Maybe this will help people (like me, for instance) who are disgusted by the overengineered OOP-heavy approach of most Java frameworks but enjoy the concise and elegant simplicity of languages like Go to finally move over and try out Android development.
  - bsaul 12y ago
    Sure, the java bloated ecoystem is a real issue. Yet, imagine yourself building UI component without classes or inheritance ? Can't even say something like "my custom button is a special kind of android button, with just those two methods being overriden". GUI is to me the field where inheritance actually makes a lot of things easier and natural. Now you may end up with something similar using struct inheritance and manually overriding function for the given type, but i doubt most devs will go past the first unsuccesfull attempts.
    - burntsushi 12y ago
      > Can't even say something like "my custom button is a special kind of android button, with just those two methods being overriden". Of course you can do that in Golang. You don't need inheritance. It has composition with type embedding. You can even "override" methods. http://play.golang.org/p/UV55gQj7t0 http://play.golang.org/p/UV55gQj7t0
      - bsaul 12y ago
        I know you can, i've explicitly talked about struct inheritance in my comment, as well as manually defining functions for the new type. Yet, this is a weird construct if all you want to do is class inheritance. You have to deal with questions like "do i want to define the func on my type, or on a pointer to that type", or "how do i call "super"", how do i extend the constructor for that new type, etc.. All those questions do have answers in golang. But you have to learn new patterns in order to do an extremely basic and common thing in OOP, once again, without much immediate apparent benefit.
tormeh 12y ago
They'd have to make Dalvik a compiler target. Could work, though.
- JulianMorrison 12y ago
  They are targeting (1) helper libraries compiled natively (2) full screen games compiled natively. Not Dalvik.
  - tormeh 12y ago
    So, not a first class citizen on Android then.
    - JulianMorrison 12y ago
      It's now exactly as much a second class citizen as C/C++
thechut 12y ago
I'm not sure how much more 'hockey stick' it can get. Android already has 85% market share.
- NiloCK 12y ago
  alfiedotwtf was referring to the potential for hockey stick growth for go, not Android.

pjmlp 12y ago

For that really to happen, the Android team needs to give some love to alternative languages. From their Fireside talk I won't expect any change.

Kiro 12y ago
> From their Fireside talk I won't expect any change. Why?
- pjmlp 12y ago
  They stated that Java is the language platform, laught at the idea someone would like to try to use Scala instead and mentioned you are pretty much on your own if you feel like using the NDK. Search for Google IO 2014 Android Fireside, video is available.
  - nly 12y ago
    They'll change their tune when Android starts losing market share.

Dewie 12y ago

I don't really see it - a language made for systems programming (read: non-application development) being used for developing Android apps? Or is there some other kind of Android development in mind, here?

laumars 12y ago
Pretty much any language can be used to program pretty much anything these days. After all, a decade or so ago people would have sniffed at the idea of Javascript running on the server side, Python being used in physics labs and anything other than C++ or Perl for UNIX systems programming (a touch of an exaggeration, but you get my point :)) These days the limitation of a programming language is the programmer him or herself.
- mtbcoder 12y ago
  Well, provided a strong implementation of your language exists for the platform/environment you are developing for.
jtakkala 12y ago
I think it was Rob Pike who later said he regretted using the term "systems programming" to describe Go. They never meant the phrase to mean purely operating system tools and programs (ie. not web applications or interactive end-user applications), which would be rather limiting. Instead, he said he said they meant it as a language for composing systems, as for example a typical SOA web site may be, or even for application development as you've alluded to. Edit: Rob mentions it here at 06:50: http://channel9.msdn.com/Events/Lang-NEXT/Lang-NEXT-2014/Panel-Systems-Programming-Languages-in-2014-and-Beyond http://channel9.msdn.com/Events/Lang-NEXT/Lang-NEXT-2014/Pan...
- pjmlp 12y ago
  Real systems programming would be possible with a little more help. Meaning a few more operations exposed in unsafe. The problem is that the average developers never saw Oberon line of languages or are unaware how much of libc is actually written in Assembly. Maybe with Go 1.5 fully re-written in Go, it will be easier to sell this scenario.
  - orbifold 12y ago
    According to Github 8.4% of glibc is written in assembly. You would actually expect that to be an over estimate, since assembly is guaranteed to be machine dependent.
    - ahh 12y ago
      I suspect this is a significant underestimate: glibc heavily relies on generated assembly (they have a set of scripts to generate boilerplate asm functions for system calls) and inline assembly (which gets defined once, probably counted as C by github, and used many times.)
- Dewie 12y ago
  With that in mind, I tried to use the phrase in a more wide sense than some other language communities would. But you're right that that phrase might as well be disassociated with the language at this point, to avoid confusion. Better to find a new word for it.
rakoo 12y ago
An app isn't only about the ui -- maybe you'll need some background operations, and you'll need to coordinate between multiple inputs. Go sounds more suited than Java for that.
jksmith 12y ago
Sure. For the internet to be fully realized, all endpoints need to provide services just as easily as consume services. The whole thing is a system.

bsaul 12y ago

I would be extremely surprised to see a language having no class, no inheritance and no good IDE become successfull in modern app development. Android devs are used to such a different type of programming, i don't expect them to accept banging their heads on so many walls for such little gains. Ps : my stand is the opposite for server side dev.

Morgawr 12y ago
Maybe this will help people (like me, for instance) who are disgusted by the overengineered OOP-heavy approach of most Java frameworks but enjoy the concise and elegant simplicity of languages like Go to finally move over and try out Android development.
- bsaul 12y ago
  Sure, the java bloated ecoystem is a real issue. Yet, imagine yourself building UI component without classes or inheritance ? Can't even say something like "my custom button is a special kind of android button, with just those two methods being overriden". GUI is to me the field where inheritance actually makes a lot of things easier and natural. Now you may end up with something similar using struct inheritance and manually overriding function for the given type, but i doubt most devs will go past the first unsuccesfull attempts.
  - burntsushi 12y ago
    > Can't even say something like "my custom button is a special kind of android button, with just those two methods being overriden". Of course you can do that in Golang. You don't need inheritance. It has composition with type embedding. You can even "override" methods. http://play.golang.org/p/UV55gQj7t0 http://play.golang.org/p/UV55gQj7t0
    - bsaul 12y ago
      I know you can, i've explicitly talked about struct inheritance in my comment, as well as manually defining functions for the new type. Yet, this is a weird construct if all you want to do is class inheritance. You have to deal with questions like "do i want to define the func on my type, or on a pointer to that type", or "how do i call "super"", how do i extend the constructor for that new type, etc.. All those questions do have answers in golang. But you have to learn new patterns in order to do an extremely basic and common thing in OOP, once again, without much immediate apparent benefit.

tormeh 12y ago

They'd have to make Dalvik a compiler target. Could work, though.

JulianMorrison 12y ago
They are targeting (1) helper libraries compiled natively (2) full screen games compiled natively. Not Dalvik.
- tormeh 12y ago
  So, not a first class citizen on Android then.
  - JulianMorrison 12y ago
    It's now exactly as much a second class citizen as C/C++

thechut 12y ago

I'm not sure how much more 'hockey stick' it can get. Android already has 85% market share.

NiloCK 12y ago
alfiedotwtf was referring to the potential for hockey stick growth for go, not Android.