11 ms·

What Colour are your bits? (2004)

51 points by sysk 12y ago

dexen 12y ago
Reminds me of jwz's problems [1] with broadcasting music via Youtube. When broadcasting from his DNA Lounge, he was greeted with the dreaded "Warning: Your stream will be terminated if you continue broadcasting content that you are not authorized to use." His take on it: Because that company is run totally by robots, and there's apparently no mechanism to tell them, "Hey robot, STFU, I pay licensing fees for all of this music and it's totally legal for me to do this." Indeed, what Colour were his bits? [1] http://www.dnalounge.com/backstage/log/2014/09/03.html http://www.dnalounge.com/backstage/log/2014/09/03.html
tmikaeld 12y ago
[2004] I don't like this new HN trend of not adding the year of the article. This is Hacker NEWS not Hacker Old.
- smcl 12y ago
  I think this has surfaced again because of some of the discussion around this article on The Pirate Bay: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8728011 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8728011. I think it's a good article whether or not it was written ten years ago.
  - louhike 12y ago
    He disapproves the lack of the year in the title, not the presence of the article on HN.
- Qwertious 12y ago
  I concur. Could a mod please add the year in to the title?
- sysk 12y ago
  I usually add the date when I feel the historical context is important but in this case, I didn't feel it was (bits are still bits, copyright is still a thing, the Paranoia game doesn't appear to be around anymore but it was only used to illustrate the author's point). Anyways, title updated.
aphrax 12y ago
the game Paranoia sounds really interesting, anything similar that's still around?
- eterm 12y ago
  I haven't been there in years so I don't know if it's still active but paranoia-live[1] used to run web-based sessions of Paranoia. Otherwise I think the original RPG is still in print? [1] http://www.paranoia-live.net/news.php http://www.paranoia-live.net/news.php
- aardvark179 12y ago
  https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1990654819/paranoia-rpg https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1990654819/paranoia-rpg this, hopefully.
  - aphrax 12y ago
    thanks so much - this look to be my cup of tea!
- elwin 12y ago
  Paranoia is still around. There's a Kickstarter for a new edition that just finished. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1990654819/paranoia-rpg https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1990654819/paranoia-rpg
- pdkl95 12y ago
  Halt, aphrax-R-YHN-2! Unreasonable suspicion about others is a mental illness only allow at Security Clearance YELLOW and above. Having a mental illness above your security clearance is considered treason. You must report to the nearest Brain-Scrub facility for Mandatory Happiness Training! Knowledge about the tabletop [REDACTED] "Paranoia" requires Security Clearance VIOLET. Having knowledge above your Security Clearance is considered treason. After your Mandatory Happiness Training is complete, please proceed to the nearest Termination Booth. Thank you for your cooperation. Always remember to help Friend Computer help you in th efight against the Commie Mutant Threat!
- 12y ago
rayiner 12y ago
Much of the article is non-sensical, but this part got my attention: > It makes a difference not only what bits you have, but where they came from. There's a very interesting Web page illustrating the Coloured nature of bits in law on the US Naval Observatory Web site. They provide information on that site about when the Sun rises and sets and so on... but they also provide it under a disclaimer saying that this information is not suitable for use in court. If you need to know when the Sun rose or set for use in a court case, then you need an expert witness - because you don't actually just need the bits that say when the Sun rose. You need those bits to be Coloured with the Colour that allows them to be admissible in court, and the USNO doesn't provide that. It's not just a question of accuracy - we all know perfectly well that the USNO's numbers are good. It's a question of where the numbers came from. It makes perfect sense to a lawyer that where the information came from is important, in fact maybe more important than the information itself. The law sees Colour. Let's consider a slightly different hypothetical. I tell a police officer: "the blood on the carpet is that of the accused." A forensic scientist tells a police officer: "the blood on the carpet is that of the accused." Are these the same bits? By the reasoning of the article, yes, but the law rightfully treats them completely differently. The source of the bits goes to reliability. In fact, the disclaimer on the UNSO's website explains why the data is not reliable for litigation: http://aa.usno.navy.mil/faq/docs/lawyers.php http://aa.usno.navy.mil/faq/docs/lawyers.php ("The data are computed and are not reports of observed or recorded events. The computations assume certain conditions and the data might therefore not be relevant to the facts at issue in a specific case."). The mistake made by the author is precisely why courts are wary to take judicial notice of random facts on the internet--even when the data is accurate, it is easy to fail to take account of relevant limitations arising from the nature of the data or the data collection. And contrary of the author's assertion--computers care a lot about where bits come from. The whole point of things like GPG signatures on digital downloads is because we trust some sources and not other sources, even when the bits might seem to be the same.
- digi_owl 12y ago
  A GPG signature is metadata (color). My string of zero and your string of zero may have different GPG signatures, but they are both strings of zero. Stripped of metadata (color) there is no way to tell who the source was.
userbinator 12y ago
This concept of "Colour" causing difficulties exists only because of the extreme flexibility and "genericness" of digital data, currently unparalleled by anything else in the real world. If/when technologies to manipulate physical objects generically at the level of atoms become feasible and widespread, we might be asking "What Colour are your atoms?"
- digi_owl 12y ago
  In other words, a Star Trek replicator will make mincemeat of the idea of copyright...
  - praptak 12y ago
    Or the other way around. Existence of replicators will create laws forbidding you to whittle yourself a shape of a Mercedes.
    - digi_owl 12y ago
      I think we are already getting there with 3D printers...
    - ryandrake 12y ago
      Or the other other way around: Star Trek style replicators will never see the light of day. As soon as the technology even REMOTELY gets close, everyone with a financial interest in keeping physical goods scarce (basically all manufacturing companies), will collectively come down on it like a ton of bricks. If you think the record and movie industry lobbying effort against sharing is powerful, imagine basically every manufacturing company in existence joining in.
      - digi_owl 12y ago
        As long as some political suit somewhere things that it will give them a leg up in the rat race, that lobbying will be shown the door.
- 12y ago
anon4 12y ago
Bits don't have colour. If some absolute psychopath goes to a remote picturesque mountain village, where scores of adorable multi-ethnic orphans are playing with litters of puppies, and murders each and every child and dog in highly personalised and brutal ways that would make even the hardiest 4channer throw up their breakfast, all while masturbating furiously, well, the courts will need to use 64-bit integers to express his sentence. However, possessing the video of that, should not be a crime. Showing it to people should be a crime, giving it to others could be a crime, but the mere bits by themselves sitting inertly on your hdd should not be a crime. And, if I'm not mistaken, even right now it wouldn't be as long as you can't see any of the children's genitalia.

51 points by sysk 12y ago

dexen 12y ago

Reminds me of jwz's problems [1] with broadcasting music via Youtube. When broadcasting from his DNA Lounge, he was greeted with the dreaded "Warning: Your stream will be terminated if you continue broadcasting content that you are not authorized to use." His take on it: Because that company is run totally by robots, and there's apparently no mechanism to tell them, "Hey robot, STFU, I pay licensing fees for all of this music and it's totally legal for me to do this." Indeed, what Colour were his bits? [1] http://www.dnalounge.com/backstage/log/2014/09/03.html http://www.dnalounge.com/backstage/log/2014/09/03.html

tmikaeld 12y ago

[2004] I don't like this new HN trend of not adding the year of the article. This is Hacker NEWS not Hacker Old.

smcl 12y ago
I think this has surfaced again because of some of the discussion around this article on The Pirate Bay: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8728011 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8728011. I think it's a good article whether or not it was written ten years ago.
- louhike 12y ago
  He disapproves the lack of the year in the title, not the presence of the article on HN.
Qwertious 12y ago
I concur. Could a mod please add the year in to the title?
sysk 12y ago
I usually add the date when I feel the historical context is important but in this case, I didn't feel it was (bits are still bits, copyright is still a thing, the Paranoia game doesn't appear to be around anymore but it was only used to illustrate the author's point). Anyways, title updated.

aphrax 12y ago

the game Paranoia sounds really interesting, anything similar that's still around?

eterm 12y ago
I haven't been there in years so I don't know if it's still active but paranoia-live[1] used to run web-based sessions of Paranoia. Otherwise I think the original RPG is still in print? [1] http://www.paranoia-live.net/news.php http://www.paranoia-live.net/news.php
aardvark179 12y ago
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1990654819/paranoia-rpg https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1990654819/paranoia-rpg this, hopefully.
- aphrax 12y ago
  thanks so much - this look to be my cup of tea!
elwin 12y ago
Paranoia is still around. There's a Kickstarter for a new edition that just finished. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1990654819/paranoia-rpg https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1990654819/paranoia-rpg
pdkl95 12y ago
Halt, aphrax-R-YHN-2! Unreasonable suspicion about others is a mental illness only allow at Security Clearance YELLOW and above. Having a mental illness above your security clearance is considered treason. You must report to the nearest Brain-Scrub facility for Mandatory Happiness Training! Knowledge about the tabletop [REDACTED] "Paranoia" requires Security Clearance VIOLET. Having knowledge above your Security Clearance is considered treason. After your Mandatory Happiness Training is complete, please proceed to the nearest Termination Booth. Thank you for your cooperation. Always remember to help Friend Computer help you in th efight against the Commie Mutant Threat!
12y ago

rayiner 12y ago

Much of the article is non-sensical, but this part got my attention: > It makes a difference not only what bits you have, but where they came from. There's a very interesting Web page illustrating the Coloured nature of bits in law on the US Naval Observatory Web site. They provide information on that site about when the Sun rises and sets and so on... but they also provide it under a disclaimer saying that this information is not suitable for use in court. If you need to know when the Sun rose or set for use in a court case, then you need an expert witness - because you don't actually just need the bits that say when the Sun rose. You need those bits to be Coloured with the Colour that allows them to be admissible in court, and the USNO doesn't provide that. It's not just a question of accuracy - we all know perfectly well that the USNO's numbers are good. It's a question of where the numbers came from. It makes perfect sense to a lawyer that where the information came from is important, in fact maybe more important than the information itself. The law sees Colour. Let's consider a slightly different hypothetical. I tell a police officer: "the blood on the carpet is that of the accused." A forensic scientist tells a police officer: "the blood on the carpet is that of the accused." Are these the same bits? By the reasoning of the article, yes, but the law rightfully treats them completely differently. The source of the bits goes to reliability. In fact, the disclaimer on the UNSO's website explains why the data is not reliable for litigation: http://aa.usno.navy.mil/faq/docs/lawyers.php http://aa.usno.navy.mil/faq/docs/lawyers.php ("The data are computed and are not reports of observed or recorded events. The computations assume certain conditions and the data might therefore not be relevant to the facts at issue in a specific case."). The mistake made by the author is precisely why courts are wary to take judicial notice of random facts on the internet--even when the data is accurate, it is easy to fail to take account of relevant limitations arising from the nature of the data or the data collection. And contrary of the author's assertion--computers care a lot about where bits come from. The whole point of things like GPG signatures on digital downloads is because we trust some sources and not other sources, even when the bits might seem to be the same.

digi_owl 12y ago
A GPG signature is metadata (color). My string of zero and your string of zero may have different GPG signatures, but they are both strings of zero. Stripped of metadata (color) there is no way to tell who the source was.

userbinator 12y ago

This concept of "Colour" causing difficulties exists only because of the extreme flexibility and "genericness" of digital data, currently unparalleled by anything else in the real world. If/when technologies to manipulate physical objects generically at the level of atoms become feasible and widespread, we might be asking "What Colour are your atoms?"

digi_owl 12y ago
In other words, a Star Trek replicator will make mincemeat of the idea of copyright...
- praptak 12y ago
  Or the other way around. Existence of replicators will create laws forbidding you to whittle yourself a shape of a Mercedes.
  - digi_owl 12y ago
    I think we are already getting there with 3D printers...
  - ryandrake 12y ago
    Or the other other way around: Star Trek style replicators will never see the light of day. As soon as the technology even REMOTELY gets close, everyone with a financial interest in keeping physical goods scarce (basically all manufacturing companies), will collectively come down on it like a ton of bricks. If you think the record and movie industry lobbying effort against sharing is powerful, imagine basically every manufacturing company in existence joining in.
    - digi_owl 12y ago
      As long as some political suit somewhere things that it will give them a leg up in the rat race, that lobbying will be shown the door.
12y ago

anon4 12y ago

Bits don't have colour. If some absolute psychopath goes to a remote picturesque mountain village, where scores of adorable multi-ethnic orphans are playing with litters of puppies, and murders each and every child and dog in highly personalised and brutal ways that would make even the hardiest 4channer throw up their breakfast, all while masturbating furiously, well, the courts will need to use 64-bit integers to express his sentence. However, possessing the video of that, should not be a crime. Showing it to people should be a crime, giving it to others could be a crime, but the mere bits by themselves sitting inertly on your hdd should not be a crime. And, if I'm not mistaken, even right now it wouldn't be as long as you can't see any of the children's genitalia.