9 ms·

We haven't apologized, we haven't made restitution, and we sure as heck haven't prosecuted the guilty (as required by the convention against torture). I'm strug

We haven't apologized, we haven't made restitution, and we sure as heck haven't prosecuted the guilty (as required by the convention against torture). I'm struggling to see any saving grace.

rdtsc 12y ago
Good point, and we might even be in worse position if action is not taken. If there is lack of outrage, it will send a message up the chain that "this is not that bad, nobody really minded this much, let's use harsher techniques next time".
- waterlesscloud 12y ago
  So here's an ethical question- If the report leads to no action, where is the good in releasing it? Real risk for real people has been created. It's not theoretical. Actual innocent people have been placed in danger. If there's no good coming from the report, was it worth placing those people in danger?
  - user24 12y ago
    Yes because it produced the opportunity to do good. At the time of publication it couldn't be known whether good would be done or not. You can't make moral judgements from a viewpoint that assumes knowledge of the future.
    - tripzilch 12y ago
      I don't disagree with your point, but: > You can't make moral judgements from a viewpoint that assumes knowledge of the future. Actually, you can. It's one of the main categories of normative ethics: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normative_ethics#Normative_ethical_theories https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normative_ethics#Normative_eth... "Consequentialism (Teleology) argues that the morality of an action is contingent on the action's outcome or result", this particular category includes one of the most famous theories of ethics, utilitarianism. Your problem with it is valid, however. As far as I've understood from my study of the subject matter, no ethical theory is perfect, not even utilitarianism. Check out the wiki page for the other categories. Personally I like virtue ethics, keeps me on my toes and critical. I wouldn't recommend it though, I'd prefer if the rest of the world was utilitarian :-P cough
  - ssmoot 12y ago
    > Real risk for real people has been created. It's not theoretical. Risk of what? > Actual innocent people have been placed in danger. Who? I'm not attempting to argue the point. I haven't read the report. It just seems a strong statement to make that innocent bystanders (with no connection to torture) have been put at risk (of what?). I'm curious how legitimate this claim is since to be honest it reads a bit like FUD (that's just how it comes off; but I'm just looking for a rationale).
    - waterlesscloud 12y ago
      Risk of revenge attacks leading to severe injury and death. People working for the US government overseas. Or just Americans. Or even just westerners in general. Security is heightened, units are on alert worldwide. The risk is real and serious. Remember, radical elements killed people over a silly video on youtube. This is much more inflammatory.
      - Anchor 12y ago
        McCain: Everyone knows we waterboarded. [1] [1] http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/us/2014/12/09/lv-mccain-comments-cia-torture-report.cnn.html http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/us/2014/12/09/lv-mcc...
      - woah 12y ago
        Would this revenge be unjustified?
        deleted 12y ago
        [deleted]
        waterlesscloud 12y ago
        Absolutely unjustified.
        pluma 12y ago
        Like going to war with two nations over an unrelated terrorist attack?
  - elwin 12y ago
    Making the information public reduces the excusability of the people responsible. It may lead to no action, but that inaction will now be complicity.
  - pluma 12y ago
    Yes, you're absolutely right. This report is making me want to kill people in cold blood. It's probably better to keep it secret so nobody finds out about it until it's too late.
  - wormparoxysm 12y ago
    I heard on npr radio that the purpose of torture is to intimidate, not extract information. Which makes it all clear. Incentives for information: 1.) Extract information. 2.) The information should be useful. Incentives for intimidation: 1.) Information extraction is of no concern. 2.) The torture should be so shocking, and awesome, that George Carlin style many extra syllables need to be added to the word "tor-ture" like when Diane Feinstein says the supersized Orwellian phrase that "tor-ture" has become. 3.) The details of the torture should be made public.
spacefight 12y ago
Right. And the only one sitting in prison so far is former CIA operative John Kiriakou who blew the whistle on the torture program. Go figure. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Kiriakou http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Kiriakou
- nhayden 12y ago
  Holy shit this is infuriating.
- jMyles 12y ago
  What an awesome person. I met his sister this year at NHLF - she was pretty rad as well. I'm excited for him to get out of prison and become a leader.
- spuiszis 12y ago
  This makes my blood boil.
- waterlesscloud 12y ago
  And the happened well into the Obama administration.
- tptacek 12y ago
  The Kiriakou story is not as straightforward as this thread makes it. You can go to FAS.ORG to see the actual case files. Kiriakou was charged with using numerous forms of classified information about foreign intelligence operations in order to promote a book, and, in doing so, outing a still-undercover foreign operative involved in the Zubaydah case. That operative had allegedly been under cover for over 20 years. If you read the filings, you'll also see that Kiriakou claims to have outed the program accidentally --- in other words, that the leak didn't occur because he was deliberately blowing the whistle on the program, but instead by accident (or, as the USG would have it, negligence). However terribly Zubaydah was treated by the CIA, we should probably remain clear on the fact that he was believed by everyone involved, including Kiriakou, to have been an integral part of the Al Qaeda network. The case files are not themselves dispositive; I merely comment to suggest that it's harder to judge the Kiriakou case than it immediately seems. I share the prevailing sentiment that our failure to prosecute CIA employees at all levels for torture is frustrating, and a miscarriage of justice. Though I'm not particularly interested in discussing that on HN.
codyb 12y ago
Nope and the DOJ is standing by their decision not to indict anyone after performing an investigation five years ago [0]. Doesn't seem shocking these days. Can't prosecute the good ol boys club. [0] - http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/cia-torture-report/doj-stands-no-charges-ruling-after-torture-report-n264711 http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/cia-torture-report/doj-stan...

We haven't apologized, we haven't made restitution, and we sure as heck haven't prosecuted the guilty (as required by the convention against torture). I'm struggling to see any saving grace.

rdtsc 12y ago

Good point, and we might even be in worse position if action is not taken. If there is lack of outrage, it will send a message up the chain that "this is not that bad, nobody really minded this much, let's use harsher techniques next time".

waterlesscloud 12y ago
So here's an ethical question- If the report leads to no action, where is the good in releasing it? Real risk for real people has been created. It's not theoretical. Actual innocent people have been placed in danger. If there's no good coming from the report, was it worth placing those people in danger?
- user24 12y ago
  Yes because it produced the opportunity to do good. At the time of publication it couldn't be known whether good would be done or not. You can't make moral judgements from a viewpoint that assumes knowledge of the future.
  - tripzilch 12y ago
    I don't disagree with your point, but: > You can't make moral judgements from a viewpoint that assumes knowledge of the future. Actually, you can. It's one of the main categories of normative ethics: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normative_ethics#Normative_ethical_theories https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normative_ethics#Normative_eth... "Consequentialism (Teleology) argues that the morality of an action is contingent on the action's outcome or result", this particular category includes one of the most famous theories of ethics, utilitarianism. Your problem with it is valid, however. As far as I've understood from my study of the subject matter, no ethical theory is perfect, not even utilitarianism. Check out the wiki page for the other categories. Personally I like virtue ethics, keeps me on my toes and critical. I wouldn't recommend it though, I'd prefer if the rest of the world was utilitarian :-P cough
- ssmoot 12y ago
  > Real risk for real people has been created. It's not theoretical. Risk of what? > Actual innocent people have been placed in danger. Who? I'm not attempting to argue the point. I haven't read the report. It just seems a strong statement to make that innocent bystanders (with no connection to torture) have been put at risk (of what?). I'm curious how legitimate this claim is since to be honest it reads a bit like FUD (that's just how it comes off; but I'm just looking for a rationale).
  - waterlesscloud 12y ago
    Risk of revenge attacks leading to severe injury and death. People working for the US government overseas. Or just Americans. Or even just westerners in general. Security is heightened, units are on alert worldwide. The risk is real and serious. Remember, radical elements killed people over a silly video on youtube. This is much more inflammatory.
    - Anchor 12y ago
      McCain: Everyone knows we waterboarded. [1] [1] http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/us/2014/12/09/lv-mccain-comments-cia-torture-report.cnn.html http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/us/2014/12/09/lv-mcc...
    - woah 12y ago
      Would this revenge be unjustified?
      - deleted 12y ago
        [deleted]
      - waterlesscloud 12y ago
        Absolutely unjustified.
        pluma 12y ago
        Like going to war with two nations over an unrelated terrorist attack?
- elwin 12y ago
  Making the information public reduces the excusability of the people responsible. It may lead to no action, but that inaction will now be complicity.
- pluma 12y ago
  Yes, you're absolutely right. This report is making me want to kill people in cold blood. It's probably better to keep it secret so nobody finds out about it until it's too late.
- wormparoxysm 12y ago
  I heard on npr radio that the purpose of torture is to intimidate, not extract information. Which makes it all clear. Incentives for information: 1.) Extract information. 2.) The information should be useful. Incentives for intimidation: 1.) Information extraction is of no concern. 2.) The torture should be so shocking, and awesome, that George Carlin style many extra syllables need to be added to the word "tor-ture" like when Diane Feinstein says the supersized Orwellian phrase that "tor-ture" has become. 3.) The details of the torture should be made public.

spacefight 12y ago

Right. And the only one sitting in prison so far is former CIA operative John Kiriakou who blew the whistle on the torture program. Go figure. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Kiriakou http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Kiriakou

nhayden 12y ago
Holy shit this is infuriating.
jMyles 12y ago
What an awesome person. I met his sister this year at NHLF - she was pretty rad as well. I'm excited for him to get out of prison and become a leader.
spuiszis 12y ago
This makes my blood boil.
waterlesscloud 12y ago
And the happened well into the Obama administration.
tptacek 12y ago
The Kiriakou story is not as straightforward as this thread makes it. You can go to FAS.ORG to see the actual case files. Kiriakou was charged with using numerous forms of classified information about foreign intelligence operations in order to promote a book, and, in doing so, outing a still-undercover foreign operative involved in the Zubaydah case. That operative had allegedly been under cover for over 20 years. If you read the filings, you'll also see that Kiriakou claims to have outed the program accidentally --- in other words, that the leak didn't occur because he was deliberately blowing the whistle on the program, but instead by accident (or, as the USG would have it, negligence). However terribly Zubaydah was treated by the CIA, we should probably remain clear on the fact that he was believed by everyone involved, including Kiriakou, to have been an integral part of the Al Qaeda network. The case files are not themselves dispositive; I merely comment to suggest that it's harder to judge the Kiriakou case than it immediately seems. I share the prevailing sentiment that our failure to prosecute CIA employees at all levels for torture is frustrating, and a miscarriage of justice. Though I'm not particularly interested in discussing that on HN.

codyb 12y ago

Nope and the DOJ is standing by their decision not to indict anyone after performing an investigation five years ago [0]. Doesn't seem shocking these days. Can't prosecute the good ol boys club. [0] - http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/cia-torture-report/doj-stands-no-charges-ruling-after-torture-report-n264711 http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/cia-torture-report/doj-stan...