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Let me disabuse you of that idea. :) Consider math. It's extremely useful and people need it to properly function in modern life. And yet people are not only t

Let me disabuse you of that idea. :) Consider math. It's extremely useful and people need it to properly function in modern life. And yet people are not only terrible at it, but they are proud of how terrible they are at it. They believe (incorrectly) that math is something you "just get" and that it is not a skill that can be learned. To me, those people are illiterate, but the perceived social stigma of being math illiterate just isn't there like it is with actual illiteracy. So, if math, which is much more fundamental and useful in the every day lives of people isn't the new literacy, I don't think coding has a chance.

baddox 12y ago
Or, for a much more direct example, just plain old normal literacy.
GregBuchholz 12y ago
What do you think of "Mindstorms" (the book)? One of the themes of that book is that math education has failed most people because of the way it has been traditionally taught (see also Lockharts's Lament). But that computers could provide a new, better way at allowing people/children to learn though exploring simulations. I found it to be really quite the impressive work, and while I began my Logo investigations to teach my kids, I'm now also trying to track down some great looking Logo books from the long distant past, like "Turtle Geometry" by Harold Abelson for myself. Yes, that Abelson.
Omniusaspirer 12y ago
>math, which is much more fundamental and useful in the every day lives I think this statement is only accurate for basic math. Nearly everybody I've known has had a situation where they wanted to code something or wished they knew how. Math is almost the opposite, I've heard more complaints about wasting time on "useless math" than I've heard regret for not pursuing it more. That's not to say they're right, but it's absolutely a strong opinion I've heard from a huge range of people. I do disagree with the premise of coding being the new literature though (as defined by >99% of the population). Any point where that percentage is reached will be one where programming looks nothing like it does today and has been abstracted to a meaningless level.
- grayclhn 12y ago
  I know lots of adults that can't use fractions correctly. I don't know how that fits in with "basic" vs "useless" math, but it doesn't give me much hope for programming (unless, like you said, 'programming' means something like 'using the occasional formula in a spreadsheet')
meowface 12y ago
Math is elegant and very useful, but let's face it, for the vast majority of people in the world all math beyond arithmetic serves almost no use. In comparison, programming of any kind can be useful to anyone if they know enough to help automate work tasks, for example.
- omegaham 12y ago
  I disagree, with a caveat: the skills you learn while learning higher math are extremely useful, even if the math itself isn't. At a fundamental level, math is taking stuff you know and manipulating it into answers to stuff you don't know. That thought process is extremely important. I use it every single day. Sometimes it's intuitive, like saying, "I need to visit five stores today. What's the most efficient way to get there?" Other times it's actual math, like saying, "I need to figure out the most efficient way to tackle my debt." The list goes on and on. Can I justify buying a new car? Should I go to college? If I were laid off tomorrow, how long could I support my current lifestyle? Even questions that have nothing to do with math such as "How do I replace my brake rotors" require that exact same mindset. Start with the stuff you know, and use it to get answers. Will you use integration by parts in your job? No. Will the thought process you've cultivated by applying integration by parts on a difficult problem help you? Yes, vastly. If you don't know math, you might not realize that a lot of these questions have concrete answers that are relatively easy to figure out. You might just wing it or not bother at all. And while that's perfectly fine when you burn another quarter-gallon of gas on your errands, it's not when you're figuring out whether you need to sell your car or how much to save each month for your kid's college fund. Or when you're given shady statistics by a politician. Or when you're offered the Once In A Lifetime opportunity to invest in Amway.
  - meowface 12y ago
    I see this argument made a lot, but is there really any empirical evidence showing that learning math at the level of calculus and trigonometry gives you better reasoning skills than learning algebra and then stopping? You can be intelligent about efficiencies and calculations without actually knowing much math at all.
- 12y ago
vegedor 12y ago
>math, which is much more fundamental and useful in the every day lives That's the part those people "just don't get" and they stand open to correction, but I think it's hard to convince anyone you need L'hopitl's rule very often, out of the blue. Tha's the extend of my maths knowledge, l'Hoptial's rule, so maybe I'm just missing the bigger picture.

baddox 12y ago

Or, for a much more direct example, just plain old normal literacy.

GregBuchholz 12y ago

What do you think of "Mindstorms" (the book)? One of the themes of that book is that math education has failed most people because of the way it has been traditionally taught (see also Lockharts's Lament). But that computers could provide a new, better way at allowing people/children to learn though exploring simulations. I found it to be really quite the impressive work, and while I began my Logo investigations to teach my kids, I'm now also trying to track down some great looking Logo books from the long distant past, like "Turtle Geometry" by Harold Abelson for myself. Yes, that Abelson.

Omniusaspirer 12y ago

>math, which is much more fundamental and useful in the every day lives I think this statement is only accurate for basic math. Nearly everybody I've known has had a situation where they wanted to code something or wished they knew how. Math is almost the opposite, I've heard more complaints about wasting time on "useless math" than I've heard regret for not pursuing it more. That's not to say they're right, but it's absolutely a strong opinion I've heard from a huge range of people. I do disagree with the premise of coding being the new literature though (as defined by >99% of the population). Any point where that percentage is reached will be one where programming looks nothing like it does today and has been abstracted to a meaningless level.

grayclhn 12y ago
I know lots of adults that can't use fractions correctly. I don't know how that fits in with "basic" vs "useless" math, but it doesn't give me much hope for programming (unless, like you said, 'programming' means something like 'using the occasional formula in a spreadsheet')

meowface 12y ago

Math is elegant and very useful, but let's face it, for the vast majority of people in the world all math beyond arithmetic serves almost no use. In comparison, programming of any kind can be useful to anyone if they know enough to help automate work tasks, for example.

omegaham 12y ago
I disagree, with a caveat: the skills you learn while learning higher math are extremely useful, even if the math itself isn't. At a fundamental level, math is taking stuff you know and manipulating it into answers to stuff you don't know. That thought process is extremely important. I use it every single day. Sometimes it's intuitive, like saying, "I need to visit five stores today. What's the most efficient way to get there?" Other times it's actual math, like saying, "I need to figure out the most efficient way to tackle my debt." The list goes on and on. Can I justify buying a new car? Should I go to college? If I were laid off tomorrow, how long could I support my current lifestyle? Even questions that have nothing to do with math such as "How do I replace my brake rotors" require that exact same mindset. Start with the stuff you know, and use it to get answers. Will you use integration by parts in your job? No. Will the thought process you've cultivated by applying integration by parts on a difficult problem help you? Yes, vastly. If you don't know math, you might not realize that a lot of these questions have concrete answers that are relatively easy to figure out. You might just wing it or not bother at all. And while that's perfectly fine when you burn another quarter-gallon of gas on your errands, it's not when you're figuring out whether you need to sell your car or how much to save each month for your kid's college fund. Or when you're given shady statistics by a politician. Or when you're offered the Once In A Lifetime opportunity to invest in Amway.
- meowface 12y ago
  I see this argument made a lot, but is there really any empirical evidence showing that learning math at the level of calculus and trigonometry gives you better reasoning skills than learning algebra and then stopping? You can be intelligent about efficiencies and calculations without actually knowing much math at all.
12y ago

vegedor 12y ago

>math, which is much more fundamental and useful in the every day lives That's the part those people "just don't get" and they stand open to correction, but I think it's hard to convince anyone you need L'hopitl's rule very often, out of the blue. Tha's the extend of my maths knowledge, l'Hoptial's rule, so maybe I'm just missing the bigger picture.