4 ms·

You're missing the point. This isn't about tax avoidance-- as the article points out the first $97k earned abroad isn't taxed and above that it isn't double ta

by MCRed 12y ago

You're missing the point. This isn't about tax avoidance-- as the article points out the first $97k earned abroad isn't taxed and above that it isn't double taxed. The problem is that the regulations are absurd, not well documented, and the fines and penalties for innocent errors (such as not filing the right form at the right time for bank accounts on which you owe no tax) are extraordinary. As an american who has spent an extended time abroad, we also suffer from the fact that the rules for banks are so bad that many countries simply won't open bank accounts for americans, because they aren't prepared for the hassle. It's often quite difficult to live and work in a country and not have a local bank account. It makes getting and making payments to people in that country much more difficult.

bruceb 12y ago
You should tell the author of the article that because he states: "The challenges facing expat Americans abroad would disappear if the United States taxed and regulated only those who lived in America." He is advocating taxing avoidance clear as day. I agree the rules and regulations should be better. But he is going one huge step further.
- mariuolo 12y ago
  > He is advocating taxing avoidance clear as day. What's so extraordinary about "avoiding" to pay taxes for services you will not use?
  - bruceb 12y ago
    Because being an American citizen is like having insurance as I clearly stated before. Also before he got the benefit of being American even though he was living abroad when he took the Rhodes scholarship. If he doesn't want to have "being American insurance" then yes maybe he should give up his citizenship. Had he argued just for less complex rules and regulations then I agree but that is not all he is advocating. He is telling US taxpayers hey keep the country going, I am not going to contribute anything but I want to be able to easily comeback if I need to.
    - jarek 12y ago
      > He is telling US taxpayers hey keep the country going, I am not going to contribute anything but I want to be able to easily comeback if I need to. FTA: "My “in-person final loss of citizenship appointment” is scheduled for Jan. 14 at the United States Consulate here."
    - mariuolo 12y ago
      > He is telling US taxpayers hey keep the country going, I am not going to contribute anything but I want to be able to easily comeback if I need to. And once he comes back he will be liable to paying taxes. Besides, is this Rhodes scholarship publicly financed? Because according to wikipedia it's funded by a private trust in England.
- josh_fyi 12y ago
  He does NOT pay US tax under the current system. So, he is not trying to avoid US tax. He is trying to avoid paying $5K to an accountant to do his US tax forms for which he does not owe any tax.
  - bruceb 12y ago
    It doesn't matter what he personally pays or doesn't. He clearly states US citizens abroad should not pay US taxes. (edit to add "US" which I thought was obvious)
    - davidw 12y ago
      > He clearly states US citizens abroad should not pay taxes. That's not exactly true: he states that US citizens abroad should not pay US taxes. We already have to pay taxes in the places we live, just as non-US citizens living in the US still have to pay taxes in the US.
    - etherael 12y ago
      Why are you so incensed by this? Does it make any difference at all if you know that the only other country in the entire world that taxes based on citizenship rather than residency is Eritrea? Even assuming you grant that the state is a reasonable entity to begin with and it is due tribute from everybody whom it claims ownership over, why should somebody pay tax in a country they no longer reside in for goods and services they no longer make use of?
    - DanBC 12y ago
      Imagine someone born in the US. They leave the US at three months old. They live their entire lives in their parents - in their - country. They are educated there. They work there. They don't have a US passport and haven't ever visited the US. In your opinion: should that person pay US tax?
      - bruceb 12y ago
        That person should be able to give up their citizenship for free. Many people even if they don't live in the US get the benefit of people the US citizen. The author didn't live in the US yet still got a Rhodes scholarship.
- davidw 12y ago
  I live and work in Italy, for an Italian company, and have to pay taxes to Italy. I use Italian health care. My children go to Italian schools. I don't see why I should pay taxes to the United States. If my Italian wife were to live in the US, she would not owe any taxes to Italy. This is true for citizens of all countries besides the US and Eritrea, and the latter probably does not have the means to enforce it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_taxation#Individuals http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_taxation#Individu...
  - bruceb 12y ago
    Then you might consider giving up your US citizenship. Of course this means your children (that you have not had yet) should not be able to claim US citizenship.
    - davidw 12y ago
      So I should give up my citizenship? No thanks. I think my country should stop being so overbearing and invasive, thank you very much, like all the others (in this particular matter, at least). "Land of the free" and all that.
jpravetz 12y ago
Exactly, the US regulations are absurd. And not just for US citizens living abroad. I'm Canadian living in the US as a resident and have a couple of real estate investment interests in Canada, but also can't create an investment account with my Canadian bank because of the regs. The regulations around overseas investments can be punitive to the max, with penalties to boot. You can run into PFIC rules, etc. It costs me over $1500/year to get an accountant to do my US taxes, and I've had specialty crossborder accountants refuse to do my return because it's too complex even for them and they are afraid of the liabilities. Not to mention that you actually can get double taxed when the US doesn't recognize a particular type of income from across the border.

by MCRed 12y ago

bruceb 12y ago

You should tell the author of the article that because he states: "The challenges facing expat Americans abroad would disappear if the United States taxed and regulated only those who lived in America." He is advocating taxing avoidance clear as day. I agree the rules and regulations should be better. But he is going one huge step further.

mariuolo 12y ago
> He is advocating taxing avoidance clear as day. What's so extraordinary about "avoiding" to pay taxes for services you will not use?
- bruceb 12y ago
  Because being an American citizen is like having insurance as I clearly stated before. Also before he got the benefit of being American even though he was living abroad when he took the Rhodes scholarship. If he doesn't want to have "being American insurance" then yes maybe he should give up his citizenship. Had he argued just for less complex rules and regulations then I agree but that is not all he is advocating. He is telling US taxpayers hey keep the country going, I am not going to contribute anything but I want to be able to easily comeback if I need to.
  - jarek 12y ago
    > He is telling US taxpayers hey keep the country going, I am not going to contribute anything but I want to be able to easily comeback if I need to. FTA: "My “in-person final loss of citizenship appointment” is scheduled for Jan. 14 at the United States Consulate here."
  - mariuolo 12y ago
    > He is telling US taxpayers hey keep the country going, I am not going to contribute anything but I want to be able to easily comeback if I need to. And once he comes back he will be liable to paying taxes. Besides, is this Rhodes scholarship publicly financed? Because according to wikipedia it's funded by a private trust in England.
josh_fyi 12y ago
He does NOT pay US tax under the current system. So, he is not trying to avoid US tax. He is trying to avoid paying $5K to an accountant to do his US tax forms for which he does not owe any tax.
- bruceb 12y ago
  It doesn't matter what he personally pays or doesn't. He clearly states US citizens abroad should not pay US taxes. (edit to add "US" which I thought was obvious)
  - davidw 12y ago
    > He clearly states US citizens abroad should not pay taxes. That's not exactly true: he states that US citizens abroad should not pay US taxes. We already have to pay taxes in the places we live, just as non-US citizens living in the US still have to pay taxes in the US.
  - etherael 12y ago
    Why are you so incensed by this? Does it make any difference at all if you know that the only other country in the entire world that taxes based on citizenship rather than residency is Eritrea? Even assuming you grant that the state is a reasonable entity to begin with and it is due tribute from everybody whom it claims ownership over, why should somebody pay tax in a country they no longer reside in for goods and services they no longer make use of?
  - DanBC 12y ago
    Imagine someone born in the US. They leave the US at three months old. They live their entire lives in their parents - in their - country. They are educated there. They work there. They don't have a US passport and haven't ever visited the US. In your opinion: should that person pay US tax?
    - bruceb 12y ago
      That person should be able to give up their citizenship for free. Many people even if they don't live in the US get the benefit of people the US citizen. The author didn't live in the US yet still got a Rhodes scholarship.
davidw 12y ago
I live and work in Italy, for an Italian company, and have to pay taxes to Italy. I use Italian health care. My children go to Italian schools. I don't see why I should pay taxes to the United States. If my Italian wife were to live in the US, she would not owe any taxes to Italy. This is true for citizens of all countries besides the US and Eritrea, and the latter probably does not have the means to enforce it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_taxation#Individuals http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_taxation#Individu...
- bruceb 12y ago
  Then you might consider giving up your US citizenship. Of course this means your children (that you have not had yet) should not be able to claim US citizenship.
  - davidw 12y ago
    So I should give up my citizenship? No thanks. I think my country should stop being so overbearing and invasive, thank you very much, like all the others (in this particular matter, at least). "Land of the free" and all that.

jpravetz 12y ago

Exactly, the US regulations are absurd. And not just for US citizens living abroad. I'm Canadian living in the US as a resident and have a couple of real estate investment interests in Canada, but also can't create an investment account with my Canadian bank because of the regs. The regulations around overseas investments can be punitive to the max, with penalties to boot. You can run into PFIC rules, etc. It costs me over $1500/year to get an accountant to do my US taxes, and I've had specialty crossborder accountants refuse to do my return because it's too complex even for them and they are afraid of the liabilities. Not to mention that you actually can get double taxed when the US doesn't recognize a particular type of income from across the border.