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From the OP: > the tools that you're using aren't that important. If language is not important, then why aren't we writing everything in assembly language? T
by mightybyte 12y ago
From the OP:
> the tools that you're using aren't that important.
If language is not important, then why aren't we writing everything in assembly language? The fact of the matter is that languages and the abstractions they facilitate are very important. If we're comparing things like C vs Java or Clojure vs Haskell, the differences might not be very obvious, but they're still there. It could be that the types of programs you wrote didn't highlight the differences. But when we look at more extreme cases like assembly language, the flaw in the thesis becomes very clear.
The problem here is that it's hard to resist the temptation to over-generalize. I'm guilty of this myself. We're humans, that's how our brains work. But sometimes it can lead us to flawed conclusions.
- nostrademons 12y agoThe "why aren't we writing everything in assembler?" argument always seems to crop up when somebody posts about the relative merits of programming languages. And the answer is that bad languages can screw over a project. But usually when people are debating language choice, it's not Unlambda vs. Haskell or Brainfuck vs. C++, it's Java vs. C++, Python vs. Ruby, or Haskell vs. Scala. In that context, language really doesn't matter - the fact that you're debating it means that there are good arguments on both sides, and you'll probably do a lot better using whatever language you are most familiar with than whatever language someone suggests on the Internet.
- cgag 12y agoSure, debates between two extremely similar languages aren't important, but it's not like the people arguing between Python and Ruby couldn't include Haskell or Rust in that debate, and the difference between those is huge.
- nostrademons 12y agoHaskell and Rust are adapted for very different problem domains than Python and Ruby. The reason someone choosing between Python and Ruby doesn't include Haskell and Rust is because Haskell and Rust would be very bad choices for the types of software that are typically built with Python and Ruby. (I say this as someone who wrote one of the top Haskell tutorials on the net, and am currently using Python for my startup.)
- mightybyte 12y agoPrecisely what problem domains are Python and Ruby adapted for that Haskell and Rust are not?
- tejon 12y agoWhich tutorial? So far I've only done Learn You and some exercism.io stuff.
- nostrademons 12y agoWrite Yourself a Scheme in 48 Hours http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Write_Yourself_a_Scheme_in_48_Hours http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Write_Yourself_a_Scheme_in_48_H...
- imanaccount247 12y agoIt seems like you missed the fundamental argument being made. First of all, this: >And the answer is that bad languages can screw over a project Proves the "languages don't matter" hypothesis wrong anyways. Second, he very clearly said that assembly simply shows how big the difference is to most people because most people are afraid of it. Yes, scala vs haskell the language does matter. Yes, C++ vs java the language does matter. Even python vs ruby the language still matters even though they are incredibly similar languages.
- nostrademons 12y agoNo, I heard the fundamental argument being made. I'm saying that when you apply it to most real-world applications, it doesn't matter, just like the article says. If you are an employee of a tech company, you use whatever language your employer is using, and you don't get a choice in the matter. If you are a founder, the only thing that matters is product/market fit, and so you use whatever language will get you there fastest, which is usually the language that you know best. If you are a consultant, then either the client will specify a language (in which case you use that) or you will use whatever will let you finish the job fastest (which is usually the one you know best).
- imanaccount247 12y ago>If you are an employee of a tech company, you use whatever language your employer is using, and you don't get a choice in the matter I've been an employee at many tech companies, and I have always had a choice in the matter. But even if your statement were true, that does not support the idea that languages don't matter. Prisoners are not given a choice of food, does that mean choice of food doesn't matter? You've just repeated your previous red herring. Trying to redirect the focus away from the subject does not make it "case closed". Nothing about startups and picking clients has anything to do with the question of whether or not languages matter.