5 ms·

Seems to me it's the government which needs to stay competitive, not the workers, ie regulation and bureaucracy.

kaoD 12y ago
What a cliché. EDIT (to elaborate): IMHO economy (like most things) is all about trade-offs. I know the states and bureaucracy are cumbersome, but they offload risk from individuals into society (which isn't always a bad thing). I respect your views on deregulation (and share them to some extent), but your phrase is really a cliché and does not address my comment (since deregulation is orthogonal to labor competition).
- disputin 12y ago
  A cliché? Or general agreement? I thought people generally agreed that Spain has issues in that regard. "I know the states and bureaucracy..." I wasn't referring to states in general, you were talking about Spain, I was responding about Spain. I'm not a ranting libertarian, I'm aware of a state's role in society. Knee jerk pouncing on a cliché that wasn't here. we've been told over and over again that we have to stay competitive, which is just an euphemism for working more and earning less How much of that extra work is unnecessary (in Spain)?
  - tormeh 12y ago
    The problem in Spain is that the government and its regulations are so bad, that the only way Spain can become competitive is if the government gets its act together. Until then (i.e. always) lower wages and longer hours will have to do.
    - disputin 12y ago
      (i.e. always) Based on above comments I hope you're voting for Podemos. * if the government gets its act together* That won't happen spontaneously.
      - kaoD 12y ago
        > I hope you're voting for Podemos. It doesn't appeal to everyone. Although Podemos isn't trying to market itself as a left-wing party, it indeed is (and everyone knows it). Its leaders had strong political connections with left-wing movements (some of them were political advisors for Chávez) and promote socialist ideas (some of them good, some bad, in my opinion). Unfortunately a right-wing Podemos is unlikely to succeed due to the traditional conservatism of the right-wing, and the "indignado" market share is already taken by Podemos. Some far-right parties grew a bit nothing real but for the moment.
  - kaoD 12y ago
    I wouldn't say bureaucracy or the State is the problem in Spain, but the political caste (in both our traditional left and right-wing parties), rampant corruption and a general lack of faith in democracy (or, more specifically, in the currently available democratic instruments). As far as I can tell we're not facing this problem alone, but we're pretty young as a democratic society and most of our politicians inherited their position or remained on it under an amnesty after Franco's dictatorship (hence the usage of "caste"). I think (though it's hard to analyze when you're involved in the situation) we're in the middle of a social and generational change. We've got daily news of corruption cases amongst the mainstream parties and people are really fed up. "Podemos" (literally "We can", a left-wing grassroots party) rose as an alternative to that political caste, and most surveys situate them as a heavy contender (if not winner) for the upcoming elections. Not long ago you'd hear lots of people claim they were not interested in politics, so they were pretty much puppets in the hands of our politician's interests. Nowadays, thanks to the 15M movement and Podemos, there are political debates on Saturday night prime time. Politics are in vogue. Perhaps that's the government competition you were talking about? We'll see what happens.
    - disputin 12y ago
      That's not the competition I talking about, but it is good to hear that it's there. The UK is also sick of its traditional parties, but is voting to the right, away from Europe. Party loyalty is usually ideology loyalty, and in a changing world the suitability of an ideology to the global context will change, so the traditional parties are likely a write off as their idea of keeping abreast is fringe tinkering. My point was that all of the responsibility of competition shouldn't have to fall on the worker when there is scope for the government to ease things for the worker. I'm not saying eg get rid of the health service, (Republicans, we're talking Europe here) but aligning processes with countries that have obviously more efficient ways of doing things. A chap on TV the other night was talking about this, he'd moved north, iirc, Denmark, giving an example of company registration taking a matter of hours. What excuse is there for the Spanish government to slack off on such trivial lubricants, the result of which then weighs on the worker?
      - 12y ago
juliangregorian 12y ago
Thank you for submitting HN's most hackneyed comment.
- dang 12y ago
  Please try harder to follow the HN guidelines.
- disputin 12y ago
  Presumably that means many people think it, yet nothing is being done about it.
learnstats2 12y ago
Governments don't have to be competitive if they mutually limit migration - and this is one problem. People need the option to leave a system that doesn't work for them, or that system won't see a need for change. The same competitive forces that are so important to capitalism should apply to nation-states as well.
- disputin 12y ago
  They do have the option to leave, and looking around London that's exactly what they're doing, which is not good for the countries they're leaving. I'd say it's more important that they have the means to change that system.
  - learnstats2 12y ago
    Why do you think it's bad for the countries they are leaving that people can go and find work elsewhere and gain experience and skills (and most likely, return with these)? There doesn't seem to be much of a downside to me.
    - disputin 12y ago
      In the context of Spain: http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/f7bdd5ce-995e-11e3-91cd-00144feab7de.html#axzz3LMA4ico0 http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/f7bdd5ce-995e-11e3-91cd-00144feab7...

kaoD 12y ago

What a cliché. EDIT (to elaborate): IMHO economy (like most things) is all about trade-offs. I know the states and bureaucracy are cumbersome, but they offload risk from individuals into society (which isn't always a bad thing). I respect your views on deregulation (and share them to some extent), but your phrase is really a cliché and does not address my comment (since deregulation is orthogonal to labor competition).

disputin 12y ago
A cliché? Or general agreement? I thought people generally agreed that Spain has issues in that regard. "I know the states and bureaucracy..." I wasn't referring to states in general, you were talking about Spain, I was responding about Spain. I'm not a ranting libertarian, I'm aware of a state's role in society. Knee jerk pouncing on a cliché that wasn't here. we've been told over and over again that we have to stay competitive, which is just an euphemism for working more and earning less How much of that extra work is unnecessary (in Spain)?
- tormeh 12y ago
  The problem in Spain is that the government and its regulations are so bad, that the only way Spain can become competitive is if the government gets its act together. Until then (i.e. always) lower wages and longer hours will have to do.
  - disputin 12y ago
    (i.e. always) Based on above comments I hope you're voting for Podemos. * if the government gets its act together* That won't happen spontaneously.
    - kaoD 12y ago
      > I hope you're voting for Podemos. It doesn't appeal to everyone. Although Podemos isn't trying to market itself as a left-wing party, it indeed is (and everyone knows it). Its leaders had strong political connections with left-wing movements (some of them were political advisors for Chávez) and promote socialist ideas (some of them good, some bad, in my opinion). Unfortunately a right-wing Podemos is unlikely to succeed due to the traditional conservatism of the right-wing, and the "indignado" market share is already taken by Podemos. Some far-right parties grew a bit nothing real but for the moment.
- kaoD 12y ago
  I wouldn't say bureaucracy or the State is the problem in Spain, but the political caste (in both our traditional left and right-wing parties), rampant corruption and a general lack of faith in democracy (or, more specifically, in the currently available democratic instruments). As far as I can tell we're not facing this problem alone, but we're pretty young as a democratic society and most of our politicians inherited their position or remained on it under an amnesty after Franco's dictatorship (hence the usage of "caste"). I think (though it's hard to analyze when you're involved in the situation) we're in the middle of a social and generational change. We've got daily news of corruption cases amongst the mainstream parties and people are really fed up. "Podemos" (literally "We can", a left-wing grassroots party) rose as an alternative to that political caste, and most surveys situate them as a heavy contender (if not winner) for the upcoming elections. Not long ago you'd hear lots of people claim they were not interested in politics, so they were pretty much puppets in the hands of our politician's interests. Nowadays, thanks to the 15M movement and Podemos, there are political debates on Saturday night prime time. Politics are in vogue. Perhaps that's the government competition you were talking about? We'll see what happens.
  - disputin 12y ago
    That's not the competition I talking about, but it is good to hear that it's there. The UK is also sick of its traditional parties, but is voting to the right, away from Europe. Party loyalty is usually ideology loyalty, and in a changing world the suitability of an ideology to the global context will change, so the traditional parties are likely a write off as their idea of keeping abreast is fringe tinkering. My point was that all of the responsibility of competition shouldn't have to fall on the worker when there is scope for the government to ease things for the worker. I'm not saying eg get rid of the health service, (Republicans, we're talking Europe here) but aligning processes with countries that have obviously more efficient ways of doing things. A chap on TV the other night was talking about this, he'd moved north, iirc, Denmark, giving an example of company registration taking a matter of hours. What excuse is there for the Spanish government to slack off on such trivial lubricants, the result of which then weighs on the worker?
    - 12y ago

juliangregorian 12y ago

Thank you for submitting HN's most hackneyed comment.

dang 12y ago
Please try harder to follow the HN guidelines.
disputin 12y ago
Presumably that means many people think it, yet nothing is being done about it.

learnstats2 12y ago

Governments don't have to be competitive if they mutually limit migration - and this is one problem. People need the option to leave a system that doesn't work for them, or that system won't see a need for change. The same competitive forces that are so important to capitalism should apply to nation-states as well.

disputin 12y ago
They do have the option to leave, and looking around London that's exactly what they're doing, which is not good for the countries they're leaving. I'd say it's more important that they have the means to change that system.
- learnstats2 12y ago
  Why do you think it's bad for the countries they are leaving that people can go and find work elsewhere and gain experience and skills (and most likely, return with these)? There doesn't seem to be much of a downside to me.
  - disputin 12y ago
    In the context of Spain: http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/f7bdd5ce-995e-11e3-91cd-00144feab7de.html#axzz3LMA4ico0 http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/f7bdd5ce-995e-11e3-91cd-00144feab7...