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Relatively moderate nit: Using the WhatsApp founders is a very poor example. If you look at their resumes (VP of Eng at Yahoo for Brian, presumably a very senio

Relatively moderate nit: Using the WhatsApp founders is a very poor example. If you look at their resumes (VP of Eng at Yahoo for Brian, presumably a very senior/architect-level engineering role for Jan), I have no doubt they were interviewing at Facebook for architect/engineering director-level roles. Whether or not you get hired at that level obviously depends on much more than baseline coding competency.

dalke 12y ago
I'll pick some at that nit. In the link, the author contrasts it to the quote from Zuckerberg: "Our policy is literally to hire as many talented engineers as we can find. The whole limit in the system is just that there aren’t enough people who are trained and have these skills today." The example is to point out how this quote is not true, as two such engineers were not hired by Facebook. You point out that it depends on more than coding competency. While true, neither I nor the author of the piece suggests otherwise. The author, for example, suggests that ageism is one factor, and further quotes Zuckerberg as saying “Young people are just smarter. Why are most chess masters under 30?” So I don't see how it's a poor example. You argue that they were a poor fit for the position. That essay brings up “purple squirrels” several times, to highlight how a generic "poor fit" can be a surface excuse for other reasons.
- smm2000 12y ago
  What's App founders were not looking for position as engineers - they were looking for position as senior managers. The fact that those two guys can write code is not that relevant. Jan managed 150 people at Yahoo - FB had in total that many engineers at the time.
  - dalke 12y ago
    I have searched, but found nothing which verifies your statement that they were looking for positions as senior managers. Or as software engineers, for that matter. Only that Koum was turned down by Facebook, and Acton by Twitter and Facebook. For what it's worth, FB had 200 engineers at the time, says http://algeri-wong.com/yishan/engineering-management.html http://algeri-wong.com/yishan/engineering-management.html . According to the FB IPO prospectus, they had a 81% growth in 2010 and 57% growth 2011, in engineering headcount. That's about 600-800 engineers at IPO. Isn't what you're suggesting still a subtle aspect of ageism? If the only positions are for low-level engineers, with little in the way of management advancement, then there's a preference for those with little experience or those with little desire to take on more management roles.
    - argonaut 12y ago
      You're right by the way. But I believe that my inference, based on their resume, is the correct one. Nobody takes a dip from VP of Engineering at Yahoo to a standard software engineering position.
- MichaelCrawford 12y ago
  In the US, Federal Law, and the law of all the US states that I know about, forbid discriminating for reasons of age against people over forty. I'm puzzled as to how Zuckerberg could have been so ignorant as to say such a thing. All I would have to do is to apply to Facebook and I'd have a good case - it's pretty obvious from my resume that I'm olde and greyye. That's not to say such discrimination does not happen, actually it's quite prevalent. It's quite common that I am asked to come in for an onsite interview, but the instant they see me in person, the way they talk it's plainly apparent that I'm not getting the job - before I even say anything. I really do have grey hair, you see, and wrinkles.
  - dalke 12y ago
    When you are worth a bajillion dollars you tend to think your opinions are right. You would have to show that your rejection from Facebook was due to age bias. Just because the head of a company makes a statement like that doesn't mean that the company carries out those actions. So no, you would not have a good case. Did you even read the first link I gave? It explains the situation; absurd requirements are used to reject people based on hidden criteria, in addition for being a strategy for lowering pay. > Technology companies can probably solve their “shortage” by discarding hidden and/or unconscious non-technical criteria as well as discarding excessively narrow “purple squirrel” technical requirements in hiring software engineers and other STEM professionals. Doing this will save them time and money (possibly $19 billion in Facebook’s case) and even make the world a better, fairer place at the same time. :-)
    - MichaelCrawford 12y ago
      That's what "Discovery" and "Deposition" are for. In the United States - specifically the US, I don't know about other countries - the Constitutional right to not incriminate oneself only applies to criminal procedures, not to civil ones. So all I would have to do is put Zuckerberg - or whoever I think may have made the decision not to hire me - under oath in a deposition, then ask them directly whether the didn't hire me as a result of my age. If they perjure themselves, they would do hard time in prison. Now there are people who will lie in depositions, or on the witness stand before a jury, so we have discovery. I would just say "Give me all of your email" and they would have to - or again, they would go to prison. I myself have Amazon cold for violating the Americans with Disabilities Act. I have two very prominent links at the top of every single page on my website, to essays about my mental illness. Amazon's HR was all over me like a cheap suit until I asked them to have a look at my site. Within the hour I received an email that informed me I would not be getting an interview. I myself am reluctant to file an ADA complaint, what I would rather do is to address the problem by writing more essays. However, were my writing to have any effect, that would only happen very slowly. I might file that complaint, as it would help other mentally ill people get work. The reason I work as a coder, and not a physicist, is for the specific reason that computer programming "accomodates" my mental illness in a way that academia does not. That is, I can be floridly paranoid, even hallucinating - and I do hallucinate from time to time - yet I can still write really good software.
- argonaut 12y ago
  If you apply for a architect / VP level position, they're not going to reject you and then suggest you work for them as a staff software engineer or something (which many people would find insulting). Zuckerberg's statement about hiring talented engineers is perfectly consistent the norm in hiring at any company.

dalke 12y ago

I'll pick some at that nit. In the link, the author contrasts it to the quote from Zuckerberg: "Our policy is literally to hire as many talented engineers as we can find. The whole limit in the system is just that there aren’t enough people who are trained and have these skills today." The example is to point out how this quote is not true, as two such engineers were not hired by Facebook. You point out that it depends on more than coding competency. While true, neither I nor the author of the piece suggests otherwise. The author, for example, suggests that ageism is one factor, and further quotes Zuckerberg as saying “Young people are just smarter. Why are most chess masters under 30?” So I don't see how it's a poor example. You argue that they were a poor fit for the position. That essay brings up “purple squirrels” several times, to highlight how a generic "poor fit" can be a surface excuse for other reasons.

smm2000 12y ago
What's App founders were not looking for position as engineers - they were looking for position as senior managers. The fact that those two guys can write code is not that relevant. Jan managed 150 people at Yahoo - FB had in total that many engineers at the time.
- dalke 12y ago
  I have searched, but found nothing which verifies your statement that they were looking for positions as senior managers. Or as software engineers, for that matter. Only that Koum was turned down by Facebook, and Acton by Twitter and Facebook. For what it's worth, FB had 200 engineers at the time, says http://algeri-wong.com/yishan/engineering-management.html http://algeri-wong.com/yishan/engineering-management.html . According to the FB IPO prospectus, they had a 81% growth in 2010 and 57% growth 2011, in engineering headcount. That's about 600-800 engineers at IPO. Isn't what you're suggesting still a subtle aspect of ageism? If the only positions are for low-level engineers, with little in the way of management advancement, then there's a preference for those with little experience or those with little desire to take on more management roles.
  - argonaut 12y ago
    You're right by the way. But I believe that my inference, based on their resume, is the correct one. Nobody takes a dip from VP of Engineering at Yahoo to a standard software engineering position.
MichaelCrawford 12y ago
In the US, Federal Law, and the law of all the US states that I know about, forbid discriminating for reasons of age against people over forty. I'm puzzled as to how Zuckerberg could have been so ignorant as to say such a thing. All I would have to do is to apply to Facebook and I'd have a good case - it's pretty obvious from my resume that I'm olde and greyye. That's not to say such discrimination does not happen, actually it's quite prevalent. It's quite common that I am asked to come in for an onsite interview, but the instant they see me in person, the way they talk it's plainly apparent that I'm not getting the job - before I even say anything. I really do have grey hair, you see, and wrinkles.
- dalke 12y ago
  When you are worth a bajillion dollars you tend to think your opinions are right. You would have to show that your rejection from Facebook was due to age bias. Just because the head of a company makes a statement like that doesn't mean that the company carries out those actions. So no, you would not have a good case. Did you even read the first link I gave? It explains the situation; absurd requirements are used to reject people based on hidden criteria, in addition for being a strategy for lowering pay. > Technology companies can probably solve their “shortage” by discarding hidden and/or unconscious non-technical criteria as well as discarding excessively narrow “purple squirrel” technical requirements in hiring software engineers and other STEM professionals. Doing this will save them time and money (possibly $19 billion in Facebook’s case) and even make the world a better, fairer place at the same time. :-)
  - MichaelCrawford 12y ago
    That's what "Discovery" and "Deposition" are for. In the United States - specifically the US, I don't know about other countries - the Constitutional right to not incriminate oneself only applies to criminal procedures, not to civil ones. So all I would have to do is put Zuckerberg - or whoever I think may have made the decision not to hire me - under oath in a deposition, then ask them directly whether the didn't hire me as a result of my age. If they perjure themselves, they would do hard time in prison. Now there are people who will lie in depositions, or on the witness stand before a jury, so we have discovery. I would just say "Give me all of your email" and they would have to - or again, they would go to prison. I myself have Amazon cold for violating the Americans with Disabilities Act. I have two very prominent links at the top of every single page on my website, to essays about my mental illness. Amazon's HR was all over me like a cheap suit until I asked them to have a look at my site. Within the hour I received an email that informed me I would not be getting an interview. I myself am reluctant to file an ADA complaint, what I would rather do is to address the problem by writing more essays. However, were my writing to have any effect, that would only happen very slowly. I might file that complaint, as it would help other mentally ill people get work. The reason I work as a coder, and not a physicist, is for the specific reason that computer programming "accomodates" my mental illness in a way that academia does not. That is, I can be floridly paranoid, even hallucinating - and I do hallucinate from time to time - yet I can still write really good software.
argonaut 12y ago
If you apply for a architect / VP level position, they're not going to reject you and then suggest you work for them as a staff software engineer or something (which many people would find insulting). Zuckerberg's statement about hiring talented engineers is perfectly consistent the norm in hiring at any company.